Heather Haslem: CASAT Podcast Network. Welcome to season six of CASAT Conversations, where we sit down with professionals who have spent decades in their fields like mental health, addiction treatment, business, sociology, and more. In this special season, our guests share valuable wisdom from their careers, reflect on what has kept them grounded and inspired, and offer advice for future generations. Whether you're new to the field, uncertain, about your next steps, or feeling burned out, these conversations provide guidance and reassurance from those who've walked this path. Let's dive into today's episode. Today we welcome Mary Dunn, a retired licensed clinical social worker. Hi, Mary

Mary Dunn: Hi, Heather. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Heather Haslem: I'm so happy to have you. So please share with us your career path and the key experiences that have defined and shaped your journey.

Mary Dunn: Gosh. I will have to start in 1971 when I graduated from the University of California, in Santa Barbara. And quite accidentally, I got a dual degree. I, was studying sociology because that was going to keep me employed. But at the same time I was fascinated by anthropology. So anytime I had an extra credit somewhere, I would be taking anthropology classes, primarily cultural anthropology. And they really kind of blended together. And, so towards the end of 1971, they called me and they said, you have enough credits to get a, ah, dual degree. And I said, well, sure, let's do that. And so that was 1971. And even then, because of the sociology degree, I knew I wanted to be helpful to people. So that's how that started. Then, I worked in the casinos. It was a tough time, in the economy, and I, couldn't find a job, so I took a job in the casinos up in South Lake Tahoe. And it was perfect, absolutely perfect for me because I was outdoorsy. I loved to ski, I loved to camp, I loved to hike, water ski, and in the winter, snow ski. And it was just, it was nirvana. It was perfect for me. so on my days off, as long as they were Monday or Tuesday, and all the tourists had gone home, I had the slopes to myself. And it was magical. It was really great. So, I began thinking in my late 30s that, I didn't want to grow old in the casinos. That started to kind of nag at me and. And, as luck would have it, I completely destroyed my right knee skiing. So I was off work for six weeks after surgery, this, that and the other thing. And I thought, well, no time like the present. So I started applying for jobs at the state, of Nevada. And they called me back and asked me to take, a test. And at the time, so the knee that was destroyed was my right knee, so I couldn't drive. So a friend of mine took me down to Carson City and I took the test. And this was some 20 years after I'd graduated from college. and I took the test and somehow magically scored, in the top five of the state. And to this day, I don't know how that happened. But then I started getting interviews for, social work jobs. And I was hired in Elko, Nevada, in Child Protective Services. I had no idea what I was getting into, but I said yes. And off I went. And I moved there in, November, December 1991. And, my training was, here's the Nevada Revised Statutes, here's the Nevada Administrative Code. Read these and, then come back and we'll discuss them. I had no idea what I was looking at. I really didn't know. I was so naive. So then I followed another social worker around for a week, and then I was on my own. And I had absolutely no idea how people treated their children because I, only had my own life experience to draw on. And, it was frightening. It was absolutely frightening. But in a way. So. Remember in college, I wanted to do something to help people. So I thought, well, I am helping these families and, you know, raise their children or whatever. They didn't necessarily want my help. and that was always an interesting factor. But, there were a couple of cases in Elco where, people actually were able to change. And I learned through going to seminars and things like that to maintain, my social work license. I learned about, ah, first order change and second order change. And first order change being you get a speeding ticket and you slow down for a little while, and then you continue to drive like you always have. Second order change is, you drive so that you don't get another ticket. And that's the way you continue to drive forever. And I learned this by going in and talking to families and seeing the house that was just absolutely a mess and saying, you gotta clean this up and I'll be back in three weeks. and they would, you know, go along with the plan, and I'd come back in two weeks instead of three and surprise them. And they were nowhere near ready. And then come back in six months. And it was the same situation as when I first, entered their lives. So, I kind of learned everything by the seat of my pants out there. There wasn't anybody to train Me, ah, other than the classes that I had to take to maintain my license, and I was grandfathered in in 1991, because you could still have a degree in just about anything. My boss had a degree in biology, but. But after January 1992, you had to have a degree in social work. And so I understand that you don't need a degree anymore. So much has changed. so that was a real education, working in Elco. It was a very tough job. Everybody was overworked, and I don't want to blame anyone, but everyone was so overworked that they did not have time to help train me. So it was a lot of seat in my pants. And, I'm grateful for that experience. I wouldn't want to do it again. I would not. It was tough.

Heather Haslem: What are some of those things that you learned in your time in Elgo?

Mary Dunn: Well, one of the things, I've already mentioned was first and second order change. I learned, about, kids in foster care because I would have to take custody of kids, and, that was always tough. typically I would have law enforcement with me. I, didn't have a whole lot of people to commiserate with. And at the time, it was law enforcement because they saw many of the same situations that I saw, and they were typically always with me if I had to take custody of children. And it was always just a horrible scene of the parents screaming and the children crying. And it was really, really tough. but sometimes that is what needed to happen to keep the children safe. So then you have a case, and, you learn how to, write a case plan, and you do it with the parents or parent. and again, no training, except for when I had to maintain, my license. And so slowly I learned to sort of the things I learned there is to start where those people are at and to not lay my expectations on them. I can tell them what the loss is and what needs to happen. And then from there, I would ask, how do you want to get there? What is the best way, do you think, to, Oh, what is the word? Satisfy the statutes of the state of Nevada so that you can get your children back. And even after someone has completed their case plan and, the courts have decided that it's safe for the children to go home, we still kept the case open and monitored for at least six months to make sure that everybody was okay. So I learned about that. I learned a lot about writing a report for the courts. We had something to follow. It's like, when was the last time you visited the home? and how did you find the children? And did you meet them at school and various other things, and have the parents made progress towards the completion of their case plan, things like that? and would you recommend that the child be returned home or the children be returned home? And I, was doing this work when 1996 came along and the Adoption of Safe Families Families act was instituted. And that really put the screws down to the social workers because, at that time, children were supposed to have a permanency plan after a year in custody. And that was difficult, but it was necessary because up until that time, children could languish in foster care until their 18th birthday. So, that was new and exciting. let's see. along with the adoption of Safe Family act came the Indian Child Welfare Act. And so we also had to determine if we took children into custody, their degree of, bloodline with whatever tribes. And you would be surprised because we had these kids that were little towheads that were blonde, as, you know, as blondie. And they would have. And some tribes would go by quantum, and others would go by their relationship, with, a tribal member. And so we had a couple of cases where the Indian Child Welfare act had to be, enacted, and the tribe would have, the opportunity to take custody of the child. Most of the times they did not do that, which I thought was strange. But, Yeah. So, that was another thing that I learned was about the Adoption and Safe Family Act. I saw it in action. And the same with the Indian Child Welfare Act. It was always, like foremost, when kids come into custody, find out where they belong. I also, licensed foster parents while I was out there, as if we weren't, buried enough with the caseloads that we had. But to me, they were the saints in the program. Absolute saints, because you could call them in the middle of the night and say, I've just picked up this child on Interstate 80, and they're still in diapers, and can you take them? And off you go to the foster parent. And they were just so accommodating, so wonderful, you know? And I've heard horror stories about foster parents since that time, but we didn't have any of those in Elko County. None at all.

Heather Haslem: And where did your career go after Elko?

Mary Dunn: So, my parents lived in Sacramento. And my mother called me one afternoon and said, you, dad's going in for quadruple bypass surgery tomorrow. And I panicked and called my boss and Said, I'm leaving. My dad's having surgery. And I cried all the way across the state of Nevada and just realized that I wanted to move closer to home. Not that I could prevent anybody's death, but I could be there for the other spouse, or at least closer than Elko, because elko's, like almost 300 miles from Reno. So I landed a job in Reno at the welfare division. And that was in 96. And there are all these kids that have aged out of foster care on my caseload, applying for benefits. And, that part was really interesting because I don't think I ever thought about what happened to the kids once they aged out. It never really crossed my mind. And there they were, not my full caseload, but I'd have two or three there that had aged out of foster care, had no skills. the girls usually had a child, so then they would qualify for, assistance. And it was fun working with them. And it was challenging working for the welfare division, but not, nearly as challenging as working for Child welfare for Child Protective Services. and it was at that time that I told my boss that I absolutely hate home visits. I just, I can't. I can't do this anymore. I said, it just is so invasive. It's so intrusive. I just hate doing it. She said, well, this is going to be your life unless you get a master's. So I got a master's. And, yeah, I'm so glad. She just basically said, okay, you can have your social work license and you'll be doing home visits until you retire or get a master's in social work, which is far more marketable in so many other areas. And I knew I wanted the mental health track, which they didn't have here, but you had to get a master's first before you could apply for a clinical internship. And, I need to backtrack here because in 1987, May 22, 1987, I was shot in a drive by shooting, coming home from work in the casinos. And, it took off the back of my head. it did not enter my skull, but it was enough of a trauma that I wound up in the emergency room and spent the night there as they novocained up the back of my head, shaved it, picked the buckshot out. it just went on till probably 6, 7 o' clock in the morning. And, I had a mentor at that time, and she said, well, you need to get into victims counseling and you need to get in now. So I was obedient. And, obviously, you know, I wasn't hurt really badly. I was just scared to death. It was very traumatizing. I couldn't drive for, I don't know, it was probably a few weeks. And then when I was driving again, I was terrified, even at oncoming traffic. So the therapy helped the therapist. The therapist hypnotized me three different times because I remember getting the license plate of the car as they drove off, but I lost it. I don't know where it went. So through the process of being in therapy for probably about a year and a half, what it did for me was, first of all, realize, okay, we're not going to find these people. But secondly, after all the therapy, I came to understand that I had been given a gift, that I, was not killed. I was grateful for that to this day. To this day, Heather, I still have buckshot in the back of my head. And I call those my gratitude bumps. Because my head could have been splattered all over the car and nobody would have known anything about, was really a frightening, frightening experience. And then I got to the point after the year and a half of therapy where if someone said, you know, I was the person that shot you, Mary I could say thank you, because it turned my life around. And the whole time I was in therapy, in the back of my head I'm thinking, I would love to be able to help other people this way with therapy. So that's how the journey started toward the lcsw. And it was a long fight to get there. the graduate school was great. I resented the fact that I had to go to two years. But it skated by. It really did. And then, I took an internship in a, In a mental health facility in Gardnerville. And it was an outpatient clinic. And at the time, I was a little fearful of, folks with mental illness. And I think that was just part of the stigma. And I thought, oh, am I going to be safe? And my first project was to. And it was all outpatient folks. So my first job was to, take, the van into Carson City to all the different, thrift stores, because we were gonna make scarecrows. And it was a little project. and so I took the van into Carson City, with all the clients that were interested in coming. And we'd go from thrift store to thrift store, and I'd identify myself as a psychiatric, caseworker working at Douglas Mental Health. And we're gonna make Scarecrows. We'd appreciate it if you could. If you could donate anything at all. Anything at all. And they were wonderful. They were wonderful. But at one point, this woman that was one of the clients at Douglas Mental Health, she was about 6, 3, had flaming red hair. She was just a wild woman. And she pulled me aside and she said, hey, Mary Hey, Mary going about this all wrong. And I said, okay, how would you suggest I do this? She said, you walk in, you meet the guy in charge, and you say, I got a van full of crazy people and we want some free shit. And that's when I fell in love with the mentally ill. It made me realize they're just like us. they're absolutely just like us. Except, you know, they have a couple of kinks in their. In their, brain, you know, their brain chemistry. And luckily, all the outpatient people that I worked with at Douglas Mental Health, you know, stayed on their medications, and they were just delightful people. I just loved them. So that was the part of my journey where I was convinced that I was meant to work with the mentally ill. And, I. Okay, 9, 11, 2001, when the twin Towers came down, no work was getting done in the office. and, so I went to the Board of Social Workers and I said, what do I have to do to become a clinical intern? And they said, well, you need to be a mental health counselor. One or sometimes. It has been known to happen. A psychiatric caseworker has submitted an application for a clinical social, work job, and we've approved it. So on that note, we sold everything in Reno, moved to Gardnerville. They had said that they would hire me as a psychiatric caseworker. And so I was on my way, Absolutely on my way. So I applied for the clinical, internship and took, them a couple of weeks, but they denied it. And I lost it. Absolutely lost it. It was like, how could they, you know, because I was convinced that they had said yes, but actually they had said maybe. And, so I stayed with Douglas Mental Health for a while, and then I went back to the Division of Child and Family Services and kind of put that dream on hold for a while. And that. That was difficult. But the job I had back with Division of Child and Family Services was with, the Interstate Compact on the placement of children. So it was still child welfare stuff. And, I was one of the one and only deputy, compact administrator. And each state in the union has one deputy compact administrator. And what we would do is, if we have kids in foster Care or in a pre adoptive placement and they're in custody of Nevada, but they have relatives in Vermont. Then we would ask Vermont to do a home study and do background checks, things like that, to see if the proposed placement was, going to be okay for the kid or the children. And conversely the other states would do that for us. if they had relatives in Las Vegas or really anywhere in the state. Then we would send out, hey, can you do a home study here on these people that live in Carlin and take their fingerprints, blah, blah, blah, background checks. and it was a great job. I absolutely loved it. but it wasn't clinical. So I just kind of kept my eye on the clinical. And in 2008 I actually, I wrote a grant, it was a sub grant and I had written a grant for VOCA for the victims of crime so that we could have some money, so that I could have some money to pay my contract employees. And it was granted. And somehow in 2008, there was this belt tightening thing going on. I don't know exactly what was going on, but I was called into my superior's office and they said I had to fire all my contract employees. And I said, I can't do that. They're the ones that make me look good. They're really, they're fantastic, really hard workers. I said, I can't do it. They said, you have to do it. I said, no. I said, I have money through this sub grant through VOCA that I can pay them. And they said, well, we already spent that. So I lost it. And, marched right down to the retirement board and asked them how much I would get if I retired today. And so they calculated everything and they said, when do you want to do this? And I said, today. And they said, no, you have to give two weeks notice. So I did. So I'm finally free of the state of Nevada employment and I can pursue my clinical license. Yeah. So I think I took a couple years off. No, it was 2009. I was hired at, West Hills Hospital as a clinical intern. And I loved it. I absolutely loved it. And for a while, from my last probably six months working there, I only worked weekends. But I ran five groups a day. I would start out in the morning with the pediatric kids and I had no clue how to work with them. So we would just play games and things like that and I would get some sort of sense of what was going on with them. Then after the pediatrics, then I would go to the adolescents. And I would do a group with the adolescents, and they were always a challenge. but it just reminded me so much of what I was like as an adolescent because I was rebellious and all that stuff. Went through that in puberty. And so, I did have something, some frame of reference with them. And then I would go to the substance abuse group. And I had experience with that because I, I'd been in recovery for 38 years, not at the time. I'd been in recovery for maybe 14, 15 years. And, so that group was fun. I really enjoyed that. And, then I would move on to the floridly psychotic group. And they were my favorites. They were my absolute favorites. some of them knew that they were in big trouble if they didn't take their medications. Some of them were trying to avoid having to go to court so that they would have an episode and then we'd have to admit them and they'd stay there through their court date. There were some of those, I forget what they're called, but there's a term for them in the dsm. and. But the thing. Ever since that woman at, Douglass Mental Health pulled me aside and said, this is how you do this, Mary And we all had such a great laugh. I realized how powerful laughter was and how powerful acceptance was of what's going on with whichever human being, that if they can accept what's going on with them and they can laugh at themselves, that's so powerful. And I'm sure you learned that, in your master's work too. It's like you see so many aging people that are just damn grumpy, and it's like, because they hurt and they've been hurt, and, you can't really blame them for being angry. But if you can get in somewhere. And it's the same with folks with mental illness. If you can get in, clear a path into an area where they're able to even giggle a little bit, it makes such a difference in their attitude. So, that wasn't my sole goal as a therapist, because I primarily used, cognitive behavioral therapy towards the end, ACT was getting some, traction acceptance and commitment therapy. I learned and was certified in emdr. Loved that. Just absolutely loved that. Because you could see results so quickly, so very quickly. So it wasn't just about teaching people to laugh. It was. I got to use honest to God therapy with people and see the difference and to see the light bulb go on in their eyes when they go, maybe I can live a little differently. Maybe I do need to approach this a little differently. that was the most rewarding kind of stuff that happened in the mental health field. Yeah.

Heather Haslem: Really appreciate hearing about your journey and all the places it's been. I was just reading a piece of writing the other day from Liz Gilbert.

Mary Dunn: Okay.

Heather Haslem: And the line that stood out was life didn't go as planned. And so she was Talking about her 20 year old self and this vision for what she had for her life and what that was gonna look like. And then looking back at 55 something, how different it was.

Mary Dunn: Absolutely.

Heather Haslem: And listening to you, I'm wondering if at all that resonates.

Mary Dunn: Yeah. I think she wrote that about me. There's no doubt in my mind because yeah, I've been so many different places and I think that's part of the grace of aging is that, is that I've had all those experiences and I've treasured each one. Each one, yeah.

Heather Haslem: Well, in circling back to what you were mentioning about aging, I think about people who are mentally ill and the stigma associated and the judgment and feeling like society doesn't accept you. and that is true in our ageist society as well. the number of elders that I hear who say they feel invisible, nobody sees me anymore. and there's you know, the external ageism that happens from society but internalized ageism as well on the I'm too old to do that or I can't do that anymore. and so there's a lot of, kind of interesting. Just hearing you talk about that. There's some interesting parallels that I think we can learn in acceptance, non judgment, these basic human things that we need. Sense of belonging so important that are true for both.

Mary Dunn: To add on to that, I have a girlfriend who has a son that's schizophrenic. And she was asking me about nami. and I said, you know, when I worked at West Hills, NAMI met there maybe once a month on Wednesdays and it was very poorly attended. I said we just don't have those kinds of services in Nevada. And I've had other friends that have actually moved back to California because they have more, I don't know if they're sophisticated, but more in number of services for mentally ill, for aging. you know, and substance abuse issues. They have a lot more. Than we do in Nevada. We're kind of slowly lagging behind but trying to catch up.

Heather Haslem: Yeah. So many I mean, I think about you and your role in Elko, you know, trying to just figure it out. And this I'm imagining big heart, just from this little bit that we've connected. and you just want to help. and there's so many people in the state who are dedicated and want to help.

Mary Dunn: Yeah.

Heather Haslem: and it also makes me think of the social ecological model in public health. Right. How policy influences how federal policy, state policies influence people's ability to support others.

Mary Dunn: Absolutely.

Heather Haslem: And how, sometimes there can be some real challenges with that.

Mary Dunn: Yeah. And the other thing that I learned in Elko was about burnout. it's like, yes, there are all these wonderful policies that come down from the federal agency down to the state, and then down to the county. And we, were so overwhelmed all the time that, there was a lot of burnout. And I did learn to take mental health days because I needed it. I needed just a day for me. And I would. When I got there, I moved there from Tahoe and I thought, oh my God, there aren't any. Well, there are big mountains out there. And I did discover them, the Rubies. But I bought a four wheel drive and I got to know the lay of the land and I just fell in love with eastern, eastern Nevada. It's just absolutely gorgeous. So I would take a mental health day and just go and drive and go exploring and go find something. I found, some elderberry patches in the Ruby Mountains, and I picked a bunch of elderberries and made elderberry jam for everybody, in the office. And when I left Elko, they said, yeah, we're not gonna miss you too much, Mary but we're gonna miss your elderberry jam. You know, but that was one of my, you know, this is just go out in nature and chill. It was so essential.

Heather Haslem: Well, I'm also imagining that you had some secondary traumatic stress.

Mary Dunn: Absolutely, I did. Absolutely. to this day, if I'm in the grocery store and I hear a child being hit, my head flips around and I am ready to go to war. And it's like, okay, Mary take a break. Take a deep breath. And if there's something here that you need to report, then that's what you do. But you don't get in the middle of it, you know, so. Yeah. And this is how many years later? This is 20 some years later. It's just, ugh. Yeah.

Heather Haslem: I'm imagining there's a physical, a body response that happens when you hear logical.

Mary Dunn: Yes, ma' am.

Heather Haslem: And then the thoughts that come and.

Mary Dunn: Yeah, I had a case where an 18 year old girl had been raised by her mother and her stepfather and her mother always had a boyfriend on the side. So the stepfather was sexually assaulting the older girl. And when she turned 18 then she turned him in. And we did an investigation even though she had already turned 18. But we, and that was out in Jackpot, Nevada, which was a long ways from Elko. and you know, the police helped me with that and they actually somehow there was a woman in New York that this same stepfather had been her stepfather and had sexually assaulted her for years. I don't know how the police got onto that, but she refused to come to Elko to testify at the trial of this child molester. So the other issue was that she had moved out and she had a younger sister and a little younger brother. And we took those two into custody because it was just too scary. and you know, you just don't know what's going to happen. So there was this huge trial and the 18 year old girl testified and she was really traumatized and cried and wept and stepfather was this scummy looking guy. He just your idea of what a child molester would look like. He could have been the poster child. and he wasn't convicted and I had a really tough time with that. and I remember going home and just laying on my bed and just being devastated. And then the next day, I ran into one of the police officers that had worked on the case with me. And he goes, oh, I saw that same guy trying to cross the street to get into the Red lion casino. He said it took everything I had not to run the guy over. And I thought just that made me feel like I'm not alone, I'm not alone. with my disappointment. You know, the police officer feels the same way. It's like we, you know, okay, the law didn't get him, but we could. So I think that was the biggest disappointment I had out there. Yeah. It wasn't too much longer after that that I took the job here in Reno at Welfare.

Heather Haslem: Yeah, those cases that stick with you?

Mary Dunn: They do, they do. Oof.

Heather Haslem: You know, as you look back at your career, is there anything that you would approach differently?

Mary Dunn: Yeah, there's a lot. well, not a whole lot, but when I thought about this question, I think that when I went from the casinos to Child protective Services a, I should have asked more questions before I accepted the job. But I didn't know what questions to ask at that time. I was just desperate to get out of the casinos. And then once I got there, everyone was so busy, no one really had time to sit down with me. And I also didn't know the questions to ask. But they would come up from time to time, and then usually I would pull somebody aside and say, how did you work this? Or, how did you work around this? but everyone was so busy that. And I wasn't assertive. I wasn't assertive enough. And I think I could have done a better job if I'd had more instruction. I just. I lived for the, For the classes that we needed to have to keep our license going. I just lived for those, primarily because they weren't Nelco. And we got to come to Reno for a while for, you know. And I would come to all the, Was it the Beta Conferences, Bureau of Alcohol and Drug Addiction. They would have a conference every year either in Reno or in Las Vegas. And I always hit those. Those were fun. But what would. You know. I just think that, Well, and this is totally unrealistic, that if I were a different person, I would have handled things differently. But, it all worked out the way it worked out. Uh-huh. Yeah.

Heather Haslem: I'm curious if there's a particular success story or breakthrough. You talked about the case that kind of has stuck with you or one case that has stuck with you throughout the years, and I'm wondering if there's a case that has stuck with you or a person and their breakthrough that has stuck with you also.

Mary Dunn: Yes. And, probably several. And they were all, victims of domestic violence. Women. Although I had one gentleman who. And God love him for having the courage to come in and say, my wife is beating me up. You just would never expect that. I would never expect that. So I had two or three women that I worked with that were victims of domestic violence, and I got a couple of them out of that situation, and a couple of them. And I continued to work with them. and a couple of them had said, you know, Mary I think I've made it all the way over the wall. Like, they have escaped prison or jail. They made it all the way over the wall and have entered a life that is free from violence. And it was like, wow. And I really don't feel like I had a whole lot to do with that. I think it was their time. Their time to say, enough, enough, and there's somebody that can help me. And it just happens to be Mary Dunne. But I was able to get them out of that situation and get them to shelter. And that was another thing about Elko is we didn't have those kinds of services in Elco. we did have a domestic violence shelter, but. And one teeny tiny mental health facility. But, yeah, it was tough sledding, but yet three women in particular had come back. And this was when I was working at welfare that, three women had come back to actually thank me. And, you know, you just cross your fingers and hope that they can continue on a life that's violence free. Uh-huh. Yeah.

Heather Haslem: Well, it makes me think about first order change and second order change.

Mary Dunn: Exactly.

Heather Haslem: Yeah. It's interesting to think about those in the context of domestic violence, which.

Mary Dunn: It's like they can complexity there, but they can get all the way over the wall. But then what? They have no skills, they have no training, they have three children and this guy that used to beat them up regularly, had a job. Yeah. It was so second order change was so many of them said, I hook up with the same guy, Mary It's the same guy every single time. He just has a different face. So then it's like, okay, well, what is it about you that you need to hook up with these people that are going to harm you? So we kind of work from that angle. And my favorite part of all of it was when the light would go on and. And they'd figure out, oh, maybe I do have something to do with this. It's just so special. Yeah.

Heather Haslem: And it's. I, don't always love the word empowering, but in this case. Right. To see that, oh, I can change myself, and that's going to impact or have a ripple effect on my relationships and who I choose.

Mary Dunn: Yeah. Mm.

Heather Haslem: what would you say has been the most fulfilling aspect of your career? And I'm gonna just say careers, plural.

Mary Dunn: Okay. Yeah. Because I've had a few. the most fulfilling, I have to say it was once I had, completed my clinical license and was certified to do emdr, that the significant changes happened so rapidly with the people that were open to the emdr, that that was extremely rewarding. And I always had this little, thing in the back of my head about, is it gonna last? Is it going to last? But then I would be clear with them and say, you can always come in for a tune up. You can always come in for a tune up. And I remember one lady did come in because she was in a weird situation. with a son of hers that should be out of the house but wasn't, and had his girlfriend and her child living in the basement. Anyway, long story short, I just kind of helped her become empowered. There's that word, to be able to stand up to the situation and say, this is not acceptable to me. and she got beaten down kind of psychologically and came back and said, can we do this part again? I was like, absolutely, absolutely. So that. I think that was the most rewarding was being able to, help people. Which was kind of what I wanted from the very beginning.

Heather Haslem: So what words of wisdom or practical advice would you offer to those just beginning their careers?

Mary Dunn: To never say, now I have seen everything, or to never say, now I have heard everything. Because, you know, it was just really kind of something superstitious that, I stopped saying it early, early, early in my career, whichever one it was. Because then, inevitably, something more horrific would happen. Ah. Or that I'd have to investigate. Or someone would come in with a horror story. Like the lady that came in whose father wanted, someone to shoot up heroin with him. And he didn't have anybody, so he started shooting her up with heroin when she was 8 years old. You know, it's like, oh, my God, what kind of chance does she have? What kind of chance did she have? So, yeah, careful. And then, I loved networking. Absolutely networking. I also. Because the people that you network with can come in handy in the most strangest times. You can say, ooh, let me call so and so, because they've had experience with this. And then, also it, was real important for me to not let my ego, run rampant with people. and to not think that I knew everything and that it was okay for me to ask my supervisor or to say, I don't understand this. Can you help me understand this? It was okay for me to not know everything. And, I would even ask clients, you know, they'd say, I'm binary or something. And it was like, whoa, tell me what that means, please. Because I don't know. And I think that has to do with kind of an ego deflation. It's like, it's okay, Mary that you don't know everything. It's perfectly okay. And that would be some advice that I would say to people entering the field. It's like, you aren't ever going to know everything. Just not possible. So don't be afraid to ask questions. And then, I'm not sure when this happened to me, but it became Crucial to everything that I did in all the different jobs that I had was to treat everyone with unconditional positive regard. And that's where I learned that I, I had some prejudices. I had some stuff going on. you know, I just remember working with a woman that was, a recovering meth addict, and, I just didn't think she was doing it right. And it's like, wow, what an ego, Mary but I had this. I had this aversion to her, and it's like, so then when I have these talks with myself, it's like, hey, you know what? She's doing the best she can, just like you are. So let it go. Let it go, Mary I don't know everything, and I'm not in everybody's head, and I don't know the circumstances that they came from or the culture. keep an open mind. Keep an open mind and absolutely take care of yourself. Put your mask on first, like they say in the airlines when you're on the airplane, and if the oxygen masks come down, you put yours on first, and then you help your child or whoever's next to you. And that rings so true in any kind of, human services. It's like, take care of you first. And when you're starting to crack, take a mental health day. Take a week. How much time have you accumulated? Ooh, go to Tahiti, you know, whatever. Or, you know, I liked massages. Those really help me, get rid of all the toxins that build up. I like those. M. Yeah.

Heather Haslem: Well, it has been a joy to be here with you today.

Mary Dunn: I have never talked so much in my life.

Heather Haslem: any final thoughts before we wrap up?

Mary Dunn: I just am so grateful for this experience. Seems like I have held all this stuff inside for so many years, and this has been the grand opportunity for me to be able to let it out and possibly let it go. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for this opportunity.

Heather Haslem: Thank you for listening to CASAT Conversations, your resource for exploring behavioral health topics. We hope you found today's conversation timely and meaningful. Please share this podcast with your friends and colleagues. If you want to learn more, visit us at our blog@casatondemand.org CASAT Podcast Network this podcast has been brought to you by the CASAT Podcast Network, located within the center for the Application of Substance Abuse Technologies, a part of the School of Public Health at the University of Nevada, Reno. For more podcast information and resources, visit casat.org.