Heather Haslem: CASAT Podcast Network. Welcome to season six of CASAT Conversations, where we sit down with professionals who have spent decades in their fields like mental health, addiction treatment, business, sociology, and more. In this special season, our guests share valuable wisdom from their careers, reflect on what has kept them grounded and inspired, and offer advice for future generations. Whether you're new to the field, uncertain about your next steps, or feeling burned out, these conversations provide guidance and reassurance from those who've walked this path. Let's dive into today's episode. Today, I am delighted to welcome back the Beverly Kyer. Beverly is a returning guest. She is a best selling author, former teacher, clinical social worker, trauma specialist, and former author of the Kyer Group Corporation. Welcome, Beverly. We're so happy to have you back.

Beverly Kyer: I am so both thrilled and honored to be asked to come back. Yeah, thank you so much for having me.


 

Heather Haslem: So, as we get started today, I'd love for you to share with us your career path and any key experiences that defined and shaped your journey to date.

Beverly Kyer: Well, let's see, my career path. I began my career actually as an elementary school teacher. And I, always point that out because that kind of determined my career path in that I had a sixth grade class, very smart kids. But I seem to always notice the children who appeared to be neglected or abused. I don't know why that was a focus and I guess it was kind of a calling. And I spoke to my principal a few times because I wanted to address it. And she said, well, that's outside of your purview. And I couldn't. And over time, you know, by the second year, I was really distressed about that. And so it just occurred to me, I want to do something about that. it was also interfering with the children's learning capacity. And so I left the teaching industry. I wasn't satisfied with their inability or maybe lack, whichever it was, following, up on what's happening to the children. So I decided to go get a degree in social work, which I jokingly say so I could meddle into those situations and do something about it, address it. Because I was really, really passionate about childhood education development. Yes, but their safety and their wellness. So I became a clinical social worker. And when I graduated with my master's, my first assignment was children with cancer and leukemia. That was basically a choice, who would be my new director offered me several positions that were open that required a social worker. And I picked the children and I picked, them and their families, because I was already somewhat connected to that and I felt like I could really add something to it, a measure of comfort and certainly understanding and empathy to them, not only to the children who, who was suffering. I knew I could make a little bit of a difference working with the team and working with their parents, but also especially working with the parents. As a parent myself of one child who was very sick child that I adopted, also had health issues. I felt that I could really understand and support the parents through struggle with. One of the most frightening things in the world is not to be, not to have control over your children's health and well being and with always the threat, you know, serious, serious illness, complications and, or death. And so that's the job that I took and I did. I was able to add a measure of comfort, a lot of support, a lot of resources. I was able to. I was, I was supported enough by the management, the director of the pediatrics oncology unit to add resources and try out new things to increase compliance. Which he sat down and told me. He says he's never seen that level of compliance. And when there's more compliance to those awful treatment protocols, the life sustains longer for the children. And so I felt really, really grateful to be able to do that. All in all though, in answer to another one of your questions, I never considered what it was doing to me. I was just very mission, very passionate about it. And on top I had all these wonderful ideas. I could comfort people, I could help them bury their children. Until it began to add up a little too much. The losses, in terms of how I felt about the losses, I think I was pretty dismissive about it. I just need to get up and do the next thing, help the next family, help the next child. And so it took its toll. And then it came to a point where I would just melt down over something after some crisis, be it resolved or it had a really horrible outcome. And so I was thinking about leaving. It's something in my spirit that is really difficult for me to leave when there's a need. However, somebody came to me and said, they would like me to consider working with veterans with Post Traumatic Stress disorder, which would require a lot of training because Post Traumatic Stress disorder at that time was not fully even in the DMS diagnostic manual psychiatric Disorders. I just twisted that all up. But I think you get what I'm saying. And so was a lot of training. And I said, well yeah, I could do that too. Again, I was somewhat related. This is not why I Took the job. But my husband, first husband, went to Vietnam and came home without his mental health. So I thought, I said, yeah, I could help, I could learn about this illness, which nobody knew anything about it before. And my lean toward that is that people typically, typically feel that when their soldiers, their children, their spouses return, they could do some things and nurture them and feed them and comfort them and pamper them and talk to them and somehow they're going to be the same. And my position was that they're not coming back to that door the same. And because I knew that, I said look, I want to learn more about this so I could impact that not only with the veterans, but with the veterans spouses, be it male or female. And I asked for funding from the Department of Defense, it was a combination of Department of Defense and the psychiatric department at the VA Medical Center. I asked them for extra funding to do some extra stuff with the children who I was pretty sure had secondary trauma and or vicare. Here I am again acknowledging the impact on children, which I think was the reason I was sent to the planet. And I did that work for five years in a program, cooperation, outreach, several satellites all over the country. We had lost, I think one of the reasons they set those programs in place. We had lost about 57,000 veterans when they got home, when they got home because of the illness, the distress, the depression, alcohol, the kind of risk taking things, people, the domestic issues that when people are really, really having mental health issues, those were the reasons we were losing so much. So the program was set up after five years. They asked us to come into the VA physically and work with the other veterans that were still there from like Korea or World War II. Soon be with the golf veterans a little bit later. But I spent 16 years doing it. One of the parts of the work that I felt that I had been able to make a major contribution is a lot of the veterans had schizophrenia and other like illnesses where the capacity for self sufficiency was not really, really there. It was very, very unstable. And so I was able, I was asked to connect with the Lieberman study. They were doing a research project to see if we could help those particular veterans be able to navigate the communities, the social systems, the services that they need and retain that information, be able to go through some steps to become self sufficient. So I ran that research project for a number of years. It was interesting. Many, many years later I was, I don't know how this happened. I must have Been an angel. I was someplace and visiting somebody and I was coming into their driveway and the mailman was at the box, delivering some postage to them or the neighborhood in general. And this person called me Ms. Kyer and I said what? You know, it kind of startled me. I didn't know him and I didn't really, really recognize him. I wasn't looking. He says Ms. Kyer, remember me from the vet center? You were my counselor. And so my, my startle was that he remembered me but that the, the, the joy almost made me cry that he was able to become a postman when he was severely schizophrenic and non compliant with medicine when I was working with him. So that was a really interesting thing. I think like I said, it might have been an angel at a time that I was feeling like what am I doing? Am I making any difference for some to be reminded? But yeah, you made an impact. You touched somebody's life. So yeah, I was able to move forward from that but I was so thrilled and surprised to see him. Okay, so I did that for 16 years and I had a personal crisis in my family. One of my children was in a near fatal state and I needed to rush to California to attend to them. And ultimately we exchanged a kidney. and it took a two year battle to sustain him. And of course that meant everything changed because I left everything back in New York and had to make some major changes and shifts. Ultimately I never went back because it took so long. just made sense for me to re. Establish a new life.


 

It was no point that I was going to be able to leave him until he really take care of himself and get back to work. and that interim one of the. I got a transfer from the Bronx VA to the Martinez California VA and one of the staff members that I was working with for a couple of years, we were really really close. Her mother was the head of a division of Casey Family Programs. this is a child foster care agency. big, big, big deal, Deep, deep pockets, able to do wonderful things. But they were at a cookout and her mother says I need a social worker but I need a person with an education background who used to teach because she wanted to set up this special program for foster kids. preparation of youth for employment pie Preparation of youth for employment. And so my friend Corky said oh I noticed the person, she was a teacher, sixth grade teacher, she's a social worker. Part of the reason I'M smiling. I don't remember applying for any of the jobs I really, really had, except to be a teacher. Those things kind of came after me. So, the director hired me to come to work in foster care. And I really, perhaps more than any other place, felt in my element, my strongest sense of purpose. Because now I'm fully helping children who were in desperate need. All manner of horrible things had happened, and we got to rescue, remove, recover, help the healing process, get things, services set up for the mental health services, medical services, was in control of their education. Sit down at the table and make sure that their, services to help them with whether they had developmental challenges or whatever, academic deficiencies, whatever. And I was just roaring. I was just roaring. I was flying out the bed in the morning. But a change came over me a little bit. And, this. I think it took other people who knew me closely to recognize, a little. Some changes, subtle but real profound in my, my mood, my emotions. That casiso. a tendency to try to be in control of something which is not my nature. generally laid back and calm and engaging to people. But it was kind of like almost a panic was taken over something else horrible. Because there were some tragedies in that work. Sometimes we couldn't get there soon enough, or by the time we were notified, it was too late. And, I noted it was disturbing my sleep. I know that I knew, I had a doctor do a sleep study on me. He says, you're only probably sleeping three hours a night. And that had gone on for a while. But, what other people notice is my shortness not only at work, but at home. When I got home from work. And my children come running to me. Mommy, Mommy, I want to show you this. Look at this. And I just wanted them to get away from me. And that's uncommon. if they did the slightest little thing. And I was really blessed to have good children, I would just kind of like snap or just, you know. So as I said to them, at some point, I says, when I come in the door, give me a quick kiss real quick and then go away. Don't ask me anything. Let me go upstairs to my room and settle down. Then I'll come down and be Mommy. And, that was something somebody asked me to do for their sake. And then I, you know, at some time I explained. But I think what it was, was when I'm looking at children who have so little and that are injured so deeply, and my children who are good, that are very, very fortunate, they have everything they need. And formerly a patient mother, but still a nurturing and protective person. When they asked me for something, it seemed like I almost said in the back of my, another part of my conscious, how dare you? When all these kids a suffering, which is totally unfair, totally unfair. But that's a change that happened.


 

something I wanted to talk to you about a little bit later. About the chemistry change in our brains and in our bodies and how we think and perceive and feel and experience things. It shifts, it shifts. And actually that's what working in trauma and tragic crisis oriented situations will do over time. Anyway, I did that work for nine years before I had my first heart failure on the job. I collapsed and, I had a nice lengthy recovery. And my directors and supervisors, they lightened my tasks when I came back and gave me some more support. But, me being me, very, very passionate to save, to rescue, to protect, to prevent. I went back into my same pattern. I can't blame that on anybody but myself. Something else I like to always warn social workers about. And, then I had a second heart failure in two years. but that one sat me down. It was devastating, highly debilitating. Scared the dickens out of me. I was actually on the freeway heading to work when my seatbelt got too tight and did not recognize that that was my heart. And so, sitting down in my recliner for weeks, months, because that's all I could do. I was in a pity party, Heather. And I was saying in a rather prayerful way, what am I going to do now? I kind of really knew I shouldn't go back into direct care with that. But still I wanted to contribute. And that's when it came to me. Build a company and teach people in the fields of human services, and especially social workers not to make the mistake that you made. Teach them to understand the overall impacts, the risks of, that work. Teach them that loving people, being passionate, kind and empathetic to people does not make you immune to the impacts of the levels of stress that you're working under every single day. Teach them to be observant about those warning signals in your body, like those little somatic complaints that your body says, sit down, stop, take a breath, take a walk, you're doing too much. things that we, and I always have surveyed people of all my conferences and workshops and always get hands raised. We don't pay attention because we're so focused on them and our responsibilities to them. And that's something I wanted to help people reverse. And so I Built the company, the Kaya Group Corporation. It wasn't a corporation at first, it was a sakai group. But over time, because it really was expansive and I wanted to do more with the program, not just teach and train people who consult with them. And I wanted to also, I also wanted to train other people to do the work. It was, interesting. It just kind of exploded in terms of aging because I didn't work with individuals. I worked with the whole agency, the whole team, rather than law enforcement or probation or medical teams, psychiatric teams, immigration people, other veterans groups. And my work incidentally, the whole corporation was about compassion fatigue, which was kind of new at the time. Not too many people knew about it and a few people were trying to be very discouraging. Compassion fatigue. I even had some professional persons tell it was only a couple say to me, well, if the job is discomforting, then maybe they're not a right fit for the job. I said, you know, if you took that position, everybody in those fields of services gets discomforted at least once a day, at the very least. So that's not the right approach to do. But it blew up once that training was out there. Word of mouth, people were asking agencies, over half the country was saying, I need you to, let's get on. You know, I was flying all around and taking the Amtrak and taking buses up and down the coast to get to these agencies. And that was fine. But here's the danger again. I wasn't tired. so I told myself I lived out of a suitcase. I might some months be home four days a month. But boy, it was such important work and it was such an impact when you could meet a whole group of attorneys working in immigration and they're kind of coming apart and these agencies are coming apart because of the weight and the pressure of people in sex trafficking, human, trafficking, and they could be broken coming into the conference center or my workshop center or the hotel place where we meet and then walk out and they say, yeah, we can still do this work. That, that was motivation for me. That's what kept me going. But again, while I was going, I wasn't thinking too much about me. Now, I'm an author on this subject, I'm an expert on this subject. But it's something about us. If the need is really, really high, external to me, I have to check myself because I will move toward that and not pay as much attention to my own self care and wellness. So the strategy was, and it shifted in all of my trainings that I Believe all of us in the fields of human services need accountability partners. And we need to find people we could trust and give them some permission to check us, to notice us, to see us, that we're doing too much and give them permissions to shut us down. Like, I like very, very bossy people say, okay, Bev, you need to stop. Well, you need to shut it down for the day. And I might say, yeah, I'm too busy and I got too much to do. And they say, you're right. I'm gonna give you 10 minutes, and then I'm gonna shut everything down for you. I need that kind of person to stop me or, you know, say something at the conference table. Let it go now. You've done enough. You said enough. And I think we. I strongly believe we all need those people while we're in these fields of service to notice us when we're focused on the others that need us. And so I did that. I was doing pretty well. And, I had a kind of leveled out. I have about, I want to say, four of my people who text me all the time, so you getting hydrated to get out the chair and take a walk. And they kind of stay on top of me. And, Covid hit. And when Covid hit, the work really escalated. You know, what was happening to agencies all over the place was not only that they had staff members that were getting sick, they had relatives that were getting sick and some people not making it. But with that, the impact of that, the quarantine, they shifted everything about who was available to. It was not the caseloads, what was happening to the client. You couldn't be there. One of the saddest things, in addition to the loss of life, to have a team, of attorneys or a team of social workers and teams of teachers who could not be mandated reporters because the children were in the house with the predator. The police ever went there, they couldn't get the children to, stick with the allegation. They would retract. And I was saying, well, yeah, but because you're going to leave them in the house, you can't take them anywhere. And, so I was working with, what I think a lot of survivors. Guilt, a lot of moral conflict. But I could do it. I could do it. So I was just doing, doing, doing. And I was very, very mindful, reminded by my, accountability partners, my very meddlesome friends, to what do you do in the evening when you finish working with these agencies? Because another shift is as opposed to me flying all over or busing or using some form of transportation to get to these agencies because of the quarantine. I was sitting on this computer on Zoom and I could be in three states in one day. So I allowed my IT to get stacked up, stacked up. I went from working in 17 states to 28 states in the first two months of COVID And so I had to be extra careful.


 

And I was. And then the most awful thing happened was January 6th, the insurrection. And I finished working with the agency in the Midwest. I remember that because I was up at 4 o' clock in the morning for their 7am shift. And when I finished with them I had another group that I was supposed to get on with 10, 30 for them. And I was going to go down, run downstairs and get a cup of coffee or something and the phone rang and with somebody who, you know, I know you don't do individual work, but I knew we need a referral because this happened to this child, this parent. It was a crisis and I was going to make a referral but I needed to get online with somebody else. So I decided to make a note and I reached across to get a sticky pad to make a note. That's for my third hearted failure. my chest has exploded. that was after watching that thing. And I think that that was the breaking point for me. And so I went into something called broken heart syndrome. I wanted to talk to you about that. My son fortunately was here working also in quarantine and so he got me in the ambulance and it took them the whole ride. They kept saying, it's a heart attack. No it's not a heart attack, it's a heart attack. No it's not a heart attack. And once in the hospital in cardiac icu, it took them about six hours to diagnose because it didn't fit in any of the profiles that they're used to. And it was actually called Takotsubu cardiomyopathy, which translates to broken heart syndrome. I had only ah, heard that term a few years ago when I had one of those doctors that are holistic. And she said that to me many, many years ago. She says you have broken heart syndrome. And I thought she was being metaphorical because the work certainly broke my heart a lot. And then I let it go. But to find out that it was a real structural thing, the stress was so intense that it caused the heart to spaz over and over and over. It was incredibly painful. And it went on for Hours. And, while that happened, it twisted misshapen the heart so that it was a bulb on the top and very narrow, which looked like an octopus. And takotsubu is a Japanese bird for octopus. And so when I learned that, then I said, boy, I have some story to tell. I quickly did a broadcast because here's my suspicion, Heather. If I had paid attention, if I knew anything about how bad stress could attack the human body, and I knew quite a bit, risk factors, illnesses, mild, serious or fatal. But for something distressed to be to such a degree that misshapen the heart, I'd have done things very different. But I certainly wanted to teach about it because my suspicion is that a lot more people in those very intensely crisis, oriented tragedies, victimization areas of human services are at risk of that. Maybe it's on the way. I don't even know what's coming because I certainly had no symptoms to warn me until that day. It exploded at the desk. And so, that's part of my current mission, is to talk. As I said, I occurred really hastily, made a broadcast, put on YouTube someplace about broken heart syndrome for people to pay attention and kind of get screened for that. But again, that goes all the way back to the importance of me talking about self care for everybody in the field. And I want to remind you that no matter how passionate or purpose or sense of mission or a sense of cause, you have to do the work, which I did. And Spades, you're still at risk. If you don't know to watch for the indicators, address them early. Early intervention is key. Stabilize yourself, decompress yourself, stop and breathe several times throughout the day, recharge yourself or reset yourself every single day, as opposed to allowing the stress to be cumulative, exacerbate in your system and compound it by all the other things, not just your work, but family responsibilities, what's going on socially in the world. That's all factors that are swirling around in our heads and creating the kind of chemistries that challenge our wellness. And so that's an important piece. I came up with my three R's. Three R's. And this is in. I do some. For some agencies. I just. They get online for two hours or one hour and I just have these little mini sessions for them to release, reboot, recharge. That's Beverly Kai is three hours. And that's just, the format that we use the releases to have a check in and just kind of open up and get stuff off your chest. No matter what it is personally or professionally, just to kind of learn to get it out. Which is a really important lesson because I know, you know, in a lot of cultures and maybe even some gender differences, people don't like to let people know they're struggling, they're in trouble, they don't talk. And so that's a real code switch in how we think about sharing. But people do it. And the reboot is some kind of technique, some kind of methodology to decompress the body, unconstrict the body, get breath and the nervous system calmed down. So we do that each time and then recharge. As I really kind of mandate. They look at me like that, is ah, being the big aunt, they're saying, look, what are you going to do for yourself tonight? And it's got to be something ridiculous, something fun, something relaxing. Don't tell me about no shopping, groceries or nothing like that. And so we got them in the habit of even planning at the beginning of the day when I get home, we're going to, I'm going to walk, I'm going to run, I'm going to play a game with the kids, I'm going to listen to music, I'm bubble bath and whatever the case is. But to learn to do those things throughout the day and never, ever, ever wait till the weekend, hold on to that stress, for several days before you do something. So that's one of the important pieces of my work notwithstanding. I wrote the book to really, really teach people about the neurophysiological impacts, impacts bitterness of compassion, fatigue. Also really the clinical terms for that is secondary trauma and vicarious trauma. And that's been quite eye opening to a lot of people. And I'm very gratified that I was able to bring that to their awareness and their knowledge for them to embrace what it takes for that.


 

So yeah, yeah, so I just answered a whole lot to two questions.

Heather Haslem: I appreciate you sharing your journey to date with us. and really a lot of the lessons that you've learned along the way sites the wisdom that you've gained throughout that journey.

Beverly Kyer: And much of the wisdom comes from talking to other people who could kind of see and observe again from people who watch me. So they were able to say, you know, you're doing this but because, and you don't need to do this and kind of help me, go deeply within myself and assess my own moves and why I do what I do. if you don't recognize, then you keep doing the same thing. So, yeah, so that's been that part. That's been a part of it.


 

You asked me the other day or earlier today about, what would I say to people in the field or coming into the field. And that always triggers something to me. And a lot of people tell me because I've done a lot of mentoring and people always recommend people to take. And I, when someone says I want to go into the field of social work, even my former, executive assistant, when I stepped down from my company, to attend to my health, she said I'm going to become a social worker. And part of that because I was a social worker and she was this somewhat impassioned. But here's what I said. My first thoughts are, oh my goodness. I'm not really all that excited that they say that because it's two things. There's two things I really think about the field and they're opposite parts. First of all, I think it's an incredible field because it's probably one of the few or maybe only profession where you get to work in so many different arenas, so many different arenas. Rather, you know, children and family stuff and law enforcement and mental health and the veterans services, homeless, human trafficking, people with developmental disabilities, you name it, school based systems, probation, you get to work in all of them. And I remember those clearly because all of them have been my clients subsequent to my building the company. And that's a really positive. Which goes with this, syncs with this. I am really quick to say to people, really do an assessment, really explore and find out what population or what target population you want to work with that's really critical to do, whether it's children or men or women or elderly or veterans, what, you know, in whatever condition or state that they're struggling, challenging with. That's important to do, to pick that for yourself. Why? Because the work is going to be hard, it's going to be difficult, it's going to be confrontational. The people you try to help are going to bite your hand. So it is really important for you to have some passion or commitment to that particular group in whatever particular state, of challenges, that they're facing. And so I always say that to them, you have resistant clients and these are people making, say what the heck am I doing? Am I making any difference? But if you committed to that population, then you can say, okay, okay, I can still do this. Because you want to. You want to. I don't believe you should ever be trapped in your Work your service. And so that's basically what I say to people and then I also tell them to do the three hours every day. Every day while you do your service.

Heather Haslem: Yeah, well as you look back, I mean you've had these really monumental transitions in the type of work that you're doing. And so I'm curious what you might even say to someone who's midway through.

Beverly Kyer: Their career, People who are midway. And I usually meet people midway or close to retirement. you know, it depends on a couple of things. Some people talk to me, sit down and they say, you know, I'm really, really tired. I don't want to do this more. Retirement is two years, three years, five years away. And I say, you're not trapped with your degree and your skill set. Go somewhere else. We're always in need, we're needed someplace else. So sit down again and kind of look at some other options, some other kind of population. Sometimes when people are in intensely stressful, where the client population has serious illnesses or near fatal situations, or you work in a unit like I did with people, are likely to pass, away, I say change your population. We're working with very, very broken children. My son told me this because he's also in the field of services with kids. He said this to me. He says, you know mommy, he says, you need to work with some children now that get a broken leg because at least it gets healed. They get the content changed. About one of the men that I, I put him, his story in my book and his work with children who had faced the worst in life and they were kind of reckless in response to that. So some serious things happened. Some of them wound up in juvenile halls, some of them wound up in gangs, some of them got killed. And a, couple of situations just about wrecked his life, his personal life, his social life, his. And we sat down and talked and he's one of the few people I spoke to privately because he was a former friend in the field and he left that work and he went to work with something that was akin to police athletic, fields. So you know, kids that were playing, kids that were happy, they weren't very, very fortunate, but at least there were children able to bring children. And so inside that realm and it's a whole different experience. And he got healed that way. He was able to transition. He came back as a director to the former job. But he's always volunteers and works with children. Sometime a little softball thing or kids go to bowling leagues and People need to make some transitions, make some shifts to take yourself out, like I call, out of the darkness and into the light as much as you can. And if it's not a real job change, then it should be your social life. Get those people, again, accountability partners, who are just going to pull you into some interesting things. There's another thing, Heather. I realized quite a while back that the overwhelming, consuming nature of that work on the front lines like that, it kind of robs us of things that we formerly enjoyed. We just stopped doing those things. It's just very. Work, responsibilities, homework, responsibilities, tasks and duties to do. And we stop enjoying life because we're consumed in that stuff. And that's not a good place to be. And you need those reminders to say, no, no, no, no, no, no. You need to plan to play, you need to plan to realize. Matter of fact, Dr. Bruce Perry spoke a lot about the importance of activities that are fun activities to release a whole different chemistry, you know, out of your right hemisphere, to be creative, to make stuff, to design stuff, to draw, to play games, the garden or whatever it is that you know, makes stuff, mold, clay and ceramics. That's important to do. but sit down and make a plan and be intentional about it. And you're probably not going to want to because many people in our field says, I don't have time, but you create time to do it. This is so critical that you do. And if you're not going and then you have a friend like Heather say, no, we're going to do this, we're going out, we're going to. There's a wine show and there's a street fair out there and we're going. To, to do that. And I had those kind of people because I, I can't tell you how many times I've gone to something he says, oh, they're having. Oh, okay. I got told I was going to the super bowl party yesterday. Nobody asked me because my friend said, there's a Super bowl party over at so and so's house. And I said, oh, really? Yes, he said, and that's not a question. That's where we're going. So you may as well get dressed because I'm coming to get you. That, that kind of thing. I need people to pull me away from their responsibilities. So that's what I would say.


 

Midway, your career makes some major, major shifts, which are critical for your resilience and your sustainability. And if you really, really at the wall, hit the Wall with that job because like I said, the demand over case load, understaffed hiring freeze. People are tense and conflictual on and kind of angry. And move, move if you have to. Don't go down with the ship. Be as supportive and helpful as you can and understand where people are. Don't even get angry with them if they're like that, because that's from their stress. But make a move for yourself. Never let yourself feel trapped.


 

Heather Haslem: I'm curious about. Well, I have this, like, lingering question from when you were talking about, your heart attacks and the broken heart syndrome. And I'm curious, like, if you were to ask your heart what it was trying to communicate with you, what do you think it would say?

Beverly Kyer: Oh, I know what my heart would say. you're doing a good job. You're giving it your best. And when your best is not good enough, that's what you're telling yourself is a lie. So be grateful at the end of the day and say to yourself, I've given it all. Now, I turn it over and that's to whomever you believe in, to me as God. It could be the universe, could be the creator, whatever the case is. But my heart said you push when you didn't have to. You kept going when you should have stopped and slowed down. You didn't see, you didn't take a pause. You needed to be needed. But that was a lesson that was a slap upside the head. So that's some of what my heart would have said. Matter of fact, it did. Kind of warned me to, continue this. We can end your story or slow down and pace yourself, and there's still a lot more you could do differently, but you could still do more.

Heather Haslem: So as you think about this next chapter and what you want to do differently and still want to contribute, what do. What do you want that to look like?

Beverly Kyer: Well, I'm going to continue writing. Matter of fact, I'm going to write some little mini booklets. I've done a lot of work with managers in the face of the change. Particularly it started with the, Covid, you know, how they had to try to micromanage people or macromanage people who were home and not on site. But I want to do some of those kind of lessons in teaching how to people to manage in the face of some massive change. And, you know, booklets. I still do those little mini. I don't do nearly as much work as I used to do, but there's just a few groups that I still get online with for about an hour or two hours with some. And I just kind of support them through my three R's. And you know, I'm moving to Portugal, so here's a major change for me. I choose to be in a different environment to help from there. Since I've already compromised my heart. I don't think I could take. I wouldn't want to put myself through another major blow. But I'll be working, you know, doing those consults and those support groups from over there along with my writing. And I'm going to be having a lot more fun and relaxation and very limited time pressures. One of the nice things about eight hours ahead is services that I still do from here on Zoom that are around 2 o' clock in the afternoon so I don't have to fly out of bed and you know, get ready and comb my hair and be ready to do people. I could just be very. Have a leisurely morning. I meet with some friends for coffee every other Friday morning and take a walk, that kind of thing. yeah. So it's a very much more leisurely life. And I'm very, very deliberate about how much work that I do. And yet I still have the privilege and the joy of being able to still serve and help in some way. and that was really important to me. Given what's happening in the country. There's going to still be a lot of need and support. The people that I've trained, I've trained over 123 certified, specialists. So I'm gratified to know that the work still continues. There's more people to do it. Yeah. Yeah. But Beverly is relaxing and taking a walk. I'm probably going to take a ride in my bike so that I get over the fear of falling because I don't bounce like I used to.

Heather Haslem: Yeah. I love that you're going to get to have more fun in this next chapter.

Beverly Kyer: Yeah.


 

Heather Haslem: what are the values that have guided you in your work?

Beverly Kyer: Well, or in your.

Heather Haslem: Maybe they're not separate. Maybe they are.

Beverly Kyer: Generally they're not that separate. actually one of my values is a gift that I'm very grateful I've had and is a gift with a double edged sword. But that's being empathetic, being an empath. to be able. It's important to me to look at people in very difficult situations sometimes, sometimes a little bit of their own making or maybe an unwillingness and get out of the situation. But to imagine that could have been me and if it were Me how hard it is to transition in and out of it. And so, I was always grateful that I was able to understand on that. And I always hold on to that. No matter how frustrated or disappointed I can get in some actions that are resistant or the, you know, sabotage the good work, the good plan is to stop and say, yeah, they're hurting, they're in pain, they're afraid, they don't have a foundation or support outside of this agency to follow through on stuff. I could do that. And that's really important, of course. Integrity and honesty for people, with people. I have always found it really, really important to me to be a human. I don't want any of my clients or patients to look at me and say, well, she got it together and she did this and she did that. Her life is perfect. You know, I do share, even when I do those support groups that, without too much deal, sometimes I'm just totally fractured. And sometimes I don't know what the heck I'm doing. I don't need to tell somebody, watch my back today. I like to level the playing field in how humans could recognize that we are human. We bleed and we hurt and we make terrible mistakes. I like to tell people sometimes put my foot all the way in my mouth. So, yeah, and that's, that's important because it makes it safe for people to say, yeah, I messed up too, and whatever the case is, and I don't know what I'm doing today, you know, and so that, that's another piece too, to be loving to people, even when they make me really, really annoyed, and even when they give me every clue that they don't love me, that's okay. Because again, I could use that empathy to say, they have no foundation for that. Maybe it's frightening, you know, too threatening for them to open up their hearts or to trust. They don't owe me their trust. I need to prove it that I'm worthy of some trust. So that's another guiding value for me. There's. And to be inclusive of other people to help that. I don't need to be the only know it all. I'm a believer. Like one of my, one of my teachers is that every human being should have at least 40 people that are their people. And, I know you could be a really, really superhero kind of social worker, but they're going to leave the agency and go out there in the real world. They need other people for other aspects of their life, to fill other holes in their life, to Continue teaching the continuous relationships. When they're the kids age out of service, I make sure that my children have relationships and they got some place to go for Thanksgiving, for Christmas, for Easter, for holidays, for Labor Day. You know, people they can sit down and talk to and learn from. That's really important value for me.

Heather Haslem: Thank you.


 

As we get ready to wrap up our time together today, is there anything else that you want to share with our listeners?

Beverly Kyer: well, maybe I just want to close by repeating myself. The importance of recognizing that no matter what, how passionate you feel about the work, that it, will take a toll. It does have a neurophysiological impact. So I always encourage people, I'm encouraging you to learn to be mindful of what's going on inside of you. Listen to your body, feel your body, listen to pay attention to the indicators. Learn what they are. There's a list of matter of fact, I wrote lists of indicators in my book. Recognize them in honor and respond to them. Early intervention is critical. You're going to get distressed, but you could bring yourself down, and that's going to happen several times a day. Bring yourself down several times a day. That's just important to do. And then in the middle or the end of your career, you'll be a healthy person ready for the next page of your life.

Heather Haslem: Well, thank you again for joining us. it's always a delight to chat with you. Appreciate you being here.

Beverly Kyer: Likewise.


 

Heather Haslem: Thank you for listening to CASAT Conversations Conversations, your resource for exploring behavioral health topics. We hope you found today's conversation timely and meaningful. Please share this podcast with your friends and colleagues. If you want to learn more, visit us at our blog at casatondemand.org. CASAT Podcast Network This podcast has been brought to you by the CASAT Podcast Network, located within the Center for the Application of Substance Abuse Technologies, a part of the School of Public Health at the University of Nevada, Reno. For more podcast information and resources, visit casat.org.