Speaker 2: CASAT Podcast Network.

Heather Haslem: Welcome to season six of CASAT Conversations, where we sit down with professionals who have spent decades in their fields like mental health, addiction treatment, business, sociology, and more. In this special season, our guests share valuable wisdom from their careers, reflect on what has kept them grounded and inspired, and offer, offer advice for future generations. Whether you're new to the field, uncertain, about your next steps, or feeling burned out, these conversations provide guidance and reassurance from those who've walked this path. Let's dive into today's episode. Today, I am delighted to welcome Dr. Meri Shadley to our show. Meri has been a mentor and a friend, a, ah, colleague, even my advisor way back in the day. And so I'm really looking forward to today's conversation. Thanks, Meri for being here with us.

Dr. Meri Shadley: Thank you, Heather.

Heather Haslem: So please share with our audience a little bit about, or a lot, whatever you prefer about your career journey and where it's taken you and where you are, where you are today.

Dr. Meri Shadley: You know, I was thinking about that this morning and, thinking, well, how do I want to say what my background is? I was thinking, you know, maybe just to talk about the beginning. You know, when I came out of my master's program, who would have thought that drug and alcohol treatment was the place that I was going to end? I had no idea. but my first job was apps, actually being able to work with teenagers in a, in a kind of a front building where kids would drop in. And a lot of them were homeless, a lot of them were running away from, you know, running away from home or struggling with drug and alcohol. And it ranged from like, say, 14 to 22 is really the age range. And, it was exciting. It was. I loved young people and I was young at that point too. And so it felt like I was a big sister in some ways that I could come in with just a little bit more experience in life than some of them, but certainly different experience because some of their experiences were much more street wise. I wasn't very street wise at that point. even now I don't think of myself as being streetwise. but it really set the stage for a couple of different things. One, it set for the stage for a, feeling of acceptance that people take a lot of different paths around on their life journey. And it also set the stage that you need a community and you can't do this alone. that I needed it and that they needed it. And so, that's how I kind of came into it and how I actually ended up Becoming a marriage and family therapist because I realized working with teenagers, you couldn't just work with them in isolation. You really needed to work with them within either their friendship group or their family or a situation where their community in some way, because that was so important to them. So I, I really kind of, honor I guess, and appreciate that. Initial my initiation into the field because it really set the direction of my career. So from that I became both a drug and alcohol counselor and a marriage and family therapist. And my identity has stayed with that since the time I was 22. You know, so it's like, wow, that's pretty exciting to find your path so early. that's gone different ways along the time. it's gone a little bit more marriage and family or a little bit more drug and alcohol at different times and different stages of my career and also the population I work with. Although I still feel like I am comfortable and like working with teenagers and with their families, I'm working more with couples now. You know, that's something that's opened up as I am older. Couples are more, interested in coming to someone who has a little bit more life experience, maybe was in a relationship themselves for a long time, that kind of thing. And certainly the drug and alcohol piece, just all the things that I've had an opportunity to learn about from people in the field and also from people who have suffered with addiction and what they have taught me. But I mean, I think the drug and alcohol field is a prime example of what community is about. They taught us that that's what really works, is creating that community of support.

Heather Haslem: That makes so, much sense.

Dr. Meri Shadley: Yeah. So that, so that really has led me down many paths. One, I personally think that as a provider in the field that we need to build community and we need to make sure that that is a part of our vehicle for both helping and for taking care of ourselves.

Heather Haslem: I know you also did your PhD at some point, and were involved in education. Can you share more about that part, ah, of your path?

Dr. Meri Shadley: Yeah, you know, when I first finished my master's and went into the field, I really enjoyed the clinical work and I had an opportunity to move from. I also have lived in both Las Vegas and Reno, so that's kind of exciting because I have a sense of both parts of the, at the two larger parts of the state. so I lived in Las Vegas for six years and I had an opportunity when I came to Reno to work in a federal grant that was teaching community providers, all kinds, probation officers, domestic violence advocates, social workers, nurses, whatever the population was of healthcare providers, about family therapy. So that started my journey around education. So got to do training and, work with. We had over 200 people come through our training programs at that in those three years. So it was a real exciting time. And I learned that I enjoyed sharing, all that I was learning with other people as well, and that, that I would learn from them and they would learn from me. And so we were able to, at that point, really focus on, how to look at families, particularly those families that have substance use issues within the family and were struggling with that. So that was one of our focuses in that training program. When that ended, I wondered, like, what's next? You know, And a lot of times I think people have a very clear picture of where they want to go. I tend to kind of follow what happens, what, what's presented. And so it was like, well, I could start a training institute, or I could go to school. Gosh, heaven forbid, you know, I could go back to school and learn some more. So at that point I went back and got my PhD, through a program called Saybrook Institute out of San Francisco. It was one of the first external degree programs at that time. Those were not popular, were not viewed as very, appropriate in some ways. but it was a great program because it integrated psychology with systems thinking, you know, organizational systems, any kind of systems. And so I was able to do my PhD in what I call clinical systems counseling. And I was able to go and interview. My dissertation was interviewing people about their training experience and about their clinical experience. What was their pathway as they went through their training and now as they were providers in the field. And I got to do that around the country, got to interview some people that ultimately be came the like. For example, Richard Schwarz, who's the creator of Internal Family Systems, he was one of my interviewees. So how exciting. He hadn't, he hadn't created it yet. So that was a very exciting time to see. Well, how did he go from here to there? What was his path like, as a, a career profess, professional. And so that set the stage, I think, to my desire to really help people get the kind of training that they wanted that fit their personalities, perhaps, and their style and their approach. And so when the, When CASAT was developed back in 1993, and there was an opportunity for a position there, boy, that seemed exactly correct for me seeing, like, wow, this is exactly what I want to be doing. I want to still see clients, but I really want to be a part of building the field and helping people reach their dreams.

Heather Haslem: What advice do you have for people who are trying to find their path?

Dr. Meri Shadley: No, I think, a lot of times, because we live in a community and we say, well, this is the program that's here, and so this is the program I should take. Sometimes that's not the best choice. You have to, I think, become more clear about who you are and what matters to you. So if I, for example, if I went to a program where they were very rigid about, you have to see clients with this approach and you have to think, think this way. That wouldn't have worked for me. It does work for some people, and it certainly works early in our career. We need structure early in our career, so it helps to have something that gives us direction. But if we're a little bit more fluid, if we, like to integrate, which I'm a person like that, a real rigid program would have been counter to my personality and counter to the way in which I think. And so what I found in my dissertation research, for example, is that if you went to a program that didn't fit you very well, it took four, five, six years to feel confident that you could do the work. So there was a lot of questioning and doubt, you know, and confusion because you weren't able to bring in who you are to your professional being. So one of my major things is really check into what you're looking at and what you. Who you are and what kind of work you want to do. When I was at the university and advising students, I felt like instead of saying, hey, here's a program, go to it. I would say, who are you? Tell me about you. Tell me about your dreams, and then talk about the different programs that exist and what might fit them. So that when you come m out of your master's and are ready to be doing a clinical practice or ready to be working with people, you are able to feel, not necessarily, oh, I'm great, because we all have imposter syndrome to some extent forever. But at least you, you're not working contrary to who you are. And I think that's really critical. And I know it's hard in our financial situation in today's world, but money isn't everything, you know, and happiness and being able to feel good about the work you're doing is as important as survival to some extent, because it's a part of survival, that emotional truth. So I would recommend that you really look at yourself, question, you know, what ways do you want to work with people? How are you with your friends? How are you with your family? That may be, an overlay as to how you will want to interact in some ways with your clients, if that makes sense.

Heather Haslem: It does. You know, as you're talking, I'm thinking back. You advised me many, many years ago. And one of the things that I really appreciated about how the advice you gave me at that time was being creative about thinking about the future. In a way. I remember I wanted to go into one program and I knew it wasn't a good fit and so you could see, see lots of different paths and gave me kind of, you know, a nice summary of those paths and then I was able to find one for me. And I was very similar like you in I ended up being a grad special in a gerontology class because that was the only class that was open when I was going to go through and become, go through the Human Development and Family Studies Masters program.

Dr. Meri Shadley: And.

Heather Haslem: Had I not taken that class, my career trajectory would have looked so different. So there was like being open and curious and sort of that going with the flow and continuing to tune in has definitely served me well in my career as well. and I feel like you model that beautifully. So thank you for that.

Dr. Meri Shadley: Thank you. Yeah, it really makes a difference, I think, because it creates happiness and and I think we are going to be more productive in our careers then. it affects so much of us. You know, if we're not happy at work, we're really usually not happy at home.

Dr. Meri Shadley: You know, that can certainly influence it. So I have a friend now who says that her career, her job is to heal people in their work environment. That's a part of her job. And she's doing management consultations and things like that. Well, I feel like there is such an overlay that we need to really be looking at all those dimensions of ourselves, as much as we can at the same time, so that we really can be our best selves in all of those places. And if we're not doing, if we're not doing what feeds our heart and our, and our beliefs and the way we handle people, then we're going to be pretty miserable in our work world.

Heather Haslem: That makes so much sense. And there's also a piece of it that I heard as you were speaking earlier about being in an environment where we feel safe to be ourselves, and the importance of that. And then I'm thinking also of the work that your friend does, how critically important that is to us, showing up so that we can do whatever work we want to do.

Dr. Meri Shadley: Right. Well, and even, you know, like for example, when I came to university, I know they were looking for a full time person and I just didn't want to give up my private practice totally. So luckily for me, Gary Fisher said, you know what, we'll make it work because we think you're the right person for here. But it sounds like you have some other things. And it's a way in which I actually felt that I kept the university and the community and both parts of my work together, you know, and, and that really worked, I think, for how I've been able to have a trajectory of my career because I believe we're a part of our community, I believe the university is a part of our community and that the community is a part of our university.

Heather Haslem: Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. I would imagine that what you were doing in your clinical practice definitely informed and kept you relevant with examples to share with students. that really informed your teaching so that you did stay fresh and current and relevant.

Dr. Meri Shadley: Well, you know, even now, although I've retired from university, I'm still seeing clients and I'm still supervising interns. and it seems to me as though it does. I mean, I want to know what's really happening in today's world because it's a little bit different than say, 40 years ago.

Dr. Meri Shadley: Not totally different though. Knowing human beings are still striving and desiring many of the same kinds of things in terms of happiness and in terms of positive relationships and in terms of being able to get past those, those dark things within and abound so that they can live a better life, those are still the same. But you know, there is, it is a different world and I need to know what that world looks like. I need to be talking to people and hearing their stories so that I can stay up.

Heather Haslem: What are some of those shifts that you've seen in the 40 years you've been practicing?

Dr. Meri Shadley: You know, we, one of the things is that we repeat, about every 30 years you see a repetition, which is interesting. I, I knew about it, I'd heard about it. In terms of clothing, you know, there was a Nehru jacket somewhere back in the 60s or 70s or whenever that came. And then all around, it sort of came back. And so it started making sense to me that if it happened in fashion, it happened. We had a pendulum Swing, we have a pendulum swing politically. For example, we go from far left to far right. We, you know, we do, we do it in many, many, many dimensions of our world. And so the same thing is true in the field. when I first came into the field, one of the things that happened is that there was a separation really between those who had not had substance use issues but were working in the field and those who were in recovery, although that wasn't the word that was being used then. those who had had issues and maybe didn't care about education because they had life education. so there was more separation between those two groups and we were not talking to each other as well. but the crisis of the 70s and all the, you know, the young people, you know, the, the war, Vietnam War, and then the young people starting to use substances. And that crisis brought us together and made us start talking to each other in a way that we had not done before. And I think that piece is really critical and has lasted longer. There was a time when we started to move away from it again, but we've come back where I think we see, that people who have both education and life experience are our best providers. That doesn't mean we have to have had a substance use provider problem, for example, to work with people who do. because we're also working with the families, we're also working with everybody that's around that. but we do understand differently. And so if we can reach out to each other, I think that's one of the things we're seeing that has lasted. And I'm so happy. I learned so much from, the folks in aa, for example, or na. I mean, I learned so much about life and about what the needs were rather than my coming from an ivory tower of the university or, you know, some other life experience, you know, that didn't give me that knowledge. One of the, my brightest and most exciting times in my career was working with the young people at the university in recovery and learning so much from them, learning so much about what really mattered and how I could be present with them and help them, find the path that they wanted. Just like our students. It's the same as a student trying to find the path of work, it's the person trying to find their path of life.

Dr. Meri Shadley: So that's one of the changes I think we've seen.

Heather Haslem: You know, as you look back at your career, I'm curious, what are you most proud of or what's closest to Your heart that just still makes you feel warm.

Dr. Meri Shadley: Well, that's certainly the recovery students on campus. really, the last 15 years of my career, for example, that's been a really big part. And I have. Every time we would have a meeting, I would probably tear up because I felt so excited to see the movement. And also to know that people were going to meet their dreams, that they were heading forward, and that they weren't giving up on school just because they had had this detour that had been really hard and maybe almost took them out, but they had found a way and that I was able. They were letting me into their lives. The other thing I noticed, I think that because of that particular group, and people in recovery, I think people in recovery sometimes, have done the deeper work. And that is. I admire that so much. To really look within, to find the darkness, to look at it, to challenge it, to say, I don't want that to be what defines me. I want this other. These other things, all these other things to be the primary thing that defines me. And yet I accept it. I accept it, and I am finding a way to forgive it, to forget that part that, you know, I lost myself in for a while. So that is probably one of the deepest, deepest places. The other thing, the other place is really working with families and knowing, you know, I, think as a. It's easy to say just tough love. That's what you need. You need just get that tough love going. You know, I'm a parent. I've had my child too. And so knowing that love is such. Just such a deep love. So I think I become more understanding of family dynamics in a way that I didn't have when I was a young person. When I was in my 20s, I didn't really understand that. and so I could easily jump in and go, hey, new parent, back off. I could easily feel that and want to do that. I think now I understand that love in a different way and understand why it's so hard for families and why they. And why they're so angry also, because it. It's like, oh, I wanted so much more. I didn't want this to be our life's journey. And yet this is the part of what we're struggling with in our family. So I think that piece also has been, It feeds my understanding and my desire to see all sides. I can see the adolescent side, for example, who says, give me space, let me be. But I can also see the parent side saying, wait a minute, wait a minute. You're going down the wrong path. Come back, come back. And how adamant they are sometimes, to their detriment, you know, But I understand it. And so I think that has been, Another joyful part is being able to, define the positive and understanding in all the choices. Including the ones that don't work. No, those are the two. In terms, clinically, in terms of, being a teacher at the university, you know, that has also been a very. I am proud. I still, you know, even though I've been retired since 2020, I identify myself as a staff member of CASAT I am, I will always be there. My heart is always there. And so I say us and we all the time. It never says they. It never changes and gets externalized. It's always a part of my identity and a part of what matters to me. I think CASAT is miraculous. I think we have. Nevada Reno in particular, has been so lucky to have that this organization, to help lead our students to give back into the community the way it does. the trainings that are available. I just. It also is a part that warms my heart because I see so many people who now are willing to work in the field because they learned that we don't stigmatize, we don't have to see the, the damage, we can see the hope. And I think SAT taught that to me and taught that, and teaches that to our students and therefore to our field.

Dr. Meri Shadley: So I feel very, very blessed. My career has. I've had many, many wonderful parts to it. And it's why I can't give it up. I keep thinking, well, you know, I, I should stop working. And I go and, and do what? Like, I'm gonna go to the gym. Well, I already go to the gym. I don't need to go to the gym all day long.

Heather Haslem: Yeah, it's. Your work has been a part of you, for the vast majority of your life. And it sounds like it is just integrated. I mean, as you were talking about that wholeness. Right. And being able to show up holy as you are, I'm imagining that this is part of you showing up in that way still.

Dr. Meri Shadley: It is, it is. And it's, it's. I don't need to, I don't need to say this is over. Just like we never stop being a child of our parents. We never stop being a parent of our child. You know, we are always in those roles. And this work is a part of who I am as an whole identity. Absolutely.

Heather Haslem: Yeah. It's part of the fabric of your being. Thanks.

Dr. Meri Shadley: So you know, when I did my dissertation I had no idea that I would go this direction but because I thought I was just going to go out and interview people about their training experiences. But what I ended up doing was starting with a genogram, you know, and as they did that I started seeing the interweaving that, that who we are in one place is who we are oftentimes in another. And yes, we have to, you know, shave off kind of that rough edges. We aren't exactly the same, but the core of who we are is who we are wherever we go.

Dr. Meri Shadley: And that interweaving is an important part of us. So I think that would be one of the major things I want folks who are starting their career out to, to make sense of. Like I had one intern who came in and she started her internship and she goes, you know what? I don't think this is me. I want to, I want to work with my dad in real estate. I want to be a part of that business world. And she shifted after getting a master's degree. And I see, I still see her around town and she's having a lovely life because she allowed herself to go what towards what was really right for her and that. And I think that's what we have to do.

Heather Haslem: Yeah. That ability to check ourselves, check in with ourselves and honor how we feel even when we've invested so much time m energy money into our careers. You know, it's, it sometimes isn't right for us anymore. Maybe we outgrow it. I'm co. Teaching a class right now on campus and we have a student who's done exactly that had been in a career and wants, wants a shift and so is coming back, you know, in their mid-50s to start this new career, that they hope to find more meaning in.

Dr. Meri Shadley: Yeah. And if we are willing to trust, I think in that. And it's hard, it's hard to trust and let go a little bit of the, of the control to actually allow us to follow ourselves rather than lead ourselves all the time. EMDR is a new treatment approach that a lot of people are very finding very useful. And it's interesting for therapists because we're not supposed to talk that much. We're supposed to follow. Follow what? The brain and the, the being of the person, where they go rather than lead. And I think that is a piece of finding that balance between leading ourselves and following ourselves. And whatever's around us to find the right pathway. We can err if we go too far on either side of that.

Heather Haslem: Yeah.

Dr. Meri Shadley: You know, too much not having any leadership towards ourselves, or not having any willingness to follow and trying to push it.

Heather Haslem: Yeah. When you can feel yourself. I mean, I can see different points in my career where I've leaned one way or maybe leaned the other. And what it's like to kind of. I don't know. The metaphor I can think of really is like being in the flow. Right. Like there's the banks of the river and then I'm in the flow. Which is actually how, therapists have described EMDR to me as well as kind of the therapist is the banks of the river and then you're just in the flow of the experiences.

Heather Haslem: Of the brain.

Dr. Meri Shadley: Well, and I think even when you think about folks in recovery, sometimes there's that push, you know, I've got to do it this way. And and that I, I have to remember sometimes that early on when we're doing anything, we do need more structure. We do need more, the bank needs to be a little, they need to come in a little bit. Not happy as wide of a river because it's too frightening. There's too many rocks, there's too many things to fall into. We need to get it a stream a little bit and have a more direction. But as we strengthen and as we are more solid within our recovery, then that can be a wider river and we can have more because we can run into a rock and know how to get around it.

Dr. Meri Shadley: We've got more experience, we've got more readiness inside of ourselves. So again it, like you said, it kind of, it changes at times. You know what we need changes a little bit and not necessarily making that be something wrong, but being able to say, well, you know, this is what I need right now. And as an, as a supervisor, that's something I have to keep in mind because I might get way too gray. And sometimes people need real black and white because they need to know that what they're doing is safe and light. Right. And good. because they don't have as much experience to be able to navigate the gray.

Heather Haslem: Yeah. As you were, as we were talking about this, I was thinking about what you were saying about new professionals. Right. And they need that, that more structure in order to be able to flow safely. And as you know, you gain experience, maybe that river widens, but there's still a Bank?

Dr. Meri Shadley: Yeah, there's still banks.

Heather Haslem: Yeah.

Dr. Meri Shadley: You know, we know in terms of ethics, for example, you know, we still have banks that says, no, don't. We don't go outside this river.

Heather Haslem: How have you navigated some of those rocks or boulders that you've experienced along the way?

Dr. Meri Shadley: I was, what comes to mind is, when I went on a training one time, I was doing a training and, and I was probably in my 30s, I guess m mid-30s maybe, and there was somebody in the training and, you know, I don't know. I think they were struggling with the fact that they weren't doing the training that I was doing the training. And, and they were smart and capable person. but they said some things to me that were really hard to hear. And I remember, hurting and thinking, gosh, am I really incompetent? Maybe I'm not any good. Maybe I shouldn't be training. There's something wrong here. They're right. I don't have any knowledge here. and my business partner said to me, maybe they're right at 5 or 10%, but they're not 100% right. So one of the things that I find is if I can allow myself to look at the feedback, to look at the difficulties that I'm having, to, not be frightened to look at it and to accept that there's some, there is some truth and maybe I'm not very good here or I didn't do that well, I wish I had done it differently. If I can look at that, I'm more able to take that as a learning and get better rather than beat myself up or, run away or be defensive. Those are painful learnings. Certainly, I mean, I certainly didn't feel very happy during that time period. but I think that willingness to know that we're not all black and white, we're not all perfect, we're not all awful, and that we're going to do some things that don't work well. Well, I, for example, I am a, little rebellious Nancy, who was my boss at the university, would say, oh, yeah, right, you are. And I have to know that because sometimes that pops in and I get kind of contrary just because I'm contrary. And so, I, if I can laugh at that and go, oh, I think I'm being rebellious here. Is it useful now or is it not? Does it help? I mean, sometimes it's a. You. It's a very useful thing about me. And sometimes it really gets in my way. And so I think that helps us navigate rocks as we're going along. because we're going to run into them for sure. You know, we're going to have a boss we don't like or we're going to have a, a situation, a client that we fail with and, and we feel that we failed with. and partially we did. You know, we have to own some of that, not all of it. and, and maybe face our imperfection. But it's only through that that we get better.

Heather Haslem: Yeah. This ability to look inward at the things that are either difficult to look at or maybe we, we don't want, you know, we want to push it away. The ability to hear, like, accept that part of ourselves, befriend it. You know, I'm, you know, you're talking about the rebellious part and it's almost like you've befriended that part. It's like, oh, hi, how are you? And like, is now the right time for you to be here? It's yes or no.

Dr. Meri Shadley: And so that it makes me good with teenagers sometimes because we share that. Oh yeah. Let's see what we could do.

Heather Haslem: Uhhuh. Uh-huh. I was, I was picturing that being the teenager part of you.

Dr. Meri Shadley: And then.

Heather Haslem: That ability to laugh with ourselves.

Heather Haslem: And forgive and yeah.

Dr. Meri Shadley: And not. And, and and I think in that way if we do that with ourselves, we're more able to do that with our clients and our, and our, and the people that we run into, our co workers, App Weeder. Do it with them. Maybe we can do it with ourselves. It's, it's, you know, a two way street going back and forth.

Dr. Meri Shadley: So I think that helps with navigating some of those rough spots. another one might be to to remain curious. And I think that's the biggest word that, that if we can keep that in our, in our, in our way of being in the world, we're more able to listen to other people, challenge ourselves a little bit. whether that be in our personal life or whether that be in our professional lives. Why, why would that be a good idea? M. I mean, think about that.

Heather Haslem: And that curiosity, I think helps us to see more possibilities versus maybe just so black and white. I was thinking about what you were saying about systems or even advising students or finding the right program, like all of these pieces. How that curiosity allows for more space for possibilities and that checking in on what makes the most sense in that moment.

Dr. Meri Shadley: Right, right, right. And you know, I mean I loved why I've loved watching students, explore, you know, and if, and I think if I could keep them excited about the class that I was teaching, keep them opening up their vision, then usually they would come to class if we were in a face to face class. and it was a way to generate excitement and like you said, possibility. And we all want more possibilities. I mean sometimes we want it not to be too many because then it's hard to make decisions but enough that we can, you know, put a direction, and keep, keep going with that direction.

Dr. Meri Shadley: Well, I was thinking when you, we were talking about, about school and the university, you know, one of the things that I enjoyed was looking for, the possibility of a new direction. Like we had the minor, you know, and so we started when we started, CASAT CASAT got started because we had this academic program and we created a minor. but then we said, well really our master's students who are out there counseling people, they need this information too. So then we added the master's specialization and, and as we keep going, well then there's gambling. Oh, we need to add a gambling. You know, courses aren't gambling. Oh, we need a family course. You know, that, that excitement that comes from being able to say there's more than one way to really get the, get information across. Some people really do think more analytically. For example, I was thinking if, if my partner Chuck Holt was doing this interview, he would be talking about something totally different.

Dr. Meri Shadley: Because he's a different human being and he focused differently. He's, he's much more, analytical and he reads all the time and, and he thinks in a very structured, more structured kind of way than I do. and boy, that would be exciting. It's exciting to think differently. Some students are going to be more attracted to that kind of way of learning while some other students are going to be more attracted to the relational aspect, which I tend to be more relational and conceptual. And he for example, is relational and analytical. And so knowing that also helped me learn how he and I needed to converse because we would sometimes go down and into that Nicol de sac where we're not hearing each other, we're not able to communicate because his analytical was stronger and my conceptual was stronger and we were missing each other. So as I learned that, I thought, well, that transfers over to students as well, that some students are going to really get a lot more out of being in a class with him or someone. who's more analytical than with me. And that's okay. That's why we have different instructors.

Heather Haslem: I'm also imagining that that shows up in your couples therapy.

Dr. Meri Shadley: Absolutely. All the time. And you go, why are we in the. Why are we in this stupid fight? No. We don't even know how we got here.

Heather Haslem: Yes, I was definitely thinking that miscommunication, and I would imagine that's one of the human things that has been prevalent or you've been. You've noticed throughout your entire career.

Dr. Meri Shadley: and I understand it better and better all the time. I mean, I think I'm still learning, certainly. and when somebody asked me what kind of therapy I do, I say it's systems, but I say it's like a jigsaw puzzle. Sometimes there's straight edges on one side and sometimes it's all curvy. But, you know, if I can stay open to that this piece didn't work, but another one might, then I can keep working. And I don't give up easily. I'm very filled with hope and possibility because I know that it's just about finding the right pieces and putting them in the right places that help pull things together.

Heather Haslem: Yeah. And m. That, that curiosity piece of being able to stay open to knowing that you don't have all the right answers. and I almost hear like this beginner's mind as you approach different people, different projects, and trusting the tools and the knowledge you've gained along the.

Dr. Meri Shadley: Way as well, and being willing to keep learning. Like there's, you know, new things come around and so, you know, we can oftentimes write new ways of working off. And then all of a sudden, 20 years later, they're now popular and you go, oh, what happened? How come I didn't look at that a little bit better? You know what stopped me? And maybe sometimes things are. We learn things before their time. like for example, eft. Not emotionally focused family therapy, but EFT meaning, tapping. That particular technique was developed originally. The original development of that was 40 years ago. And it was really written off as something not, you know, too unusual, too off the norm. Today it's considered something that we can see the value because we understand the brain a little bit better now than we did back then. So I find that if I'm willing to keep, open to learning new things, that I may not use them yet. But at least if I remain open to them, I might understand when they come back up again 30 years later.

Heather Haslem: I love that.

Dr. Meri Shadley: I mean, we never knew, we never knew yoga and mindfulness was going to be such an important part of therapy, for example.

Dr. Meri Shadley: In the beginning, that wasn't what it was.

Heather Haslem: It's, it's so fascinating to me as I think about those pieces because, I'm, I've been in the yoga and mindfulness world for, you know, 20 and 10 years consecutively. And I'm aware of also like we as a society don't believe it makes a difference until we have enough research to prove it. Right. And that we know from being in the academic world that that takes at least 10 to 20 years to create enough literature to be able to show that it's effective. And so I guess my question for you is anyone out there who's seeing things in the world who wants to develop, you know, a theory or a program, do you have any advice for them?

Dr. Meri Shadley: M. Well that's interesting. That's an interesting question. I guess I would say, well, I was thinking about this from, you know, again, if you think from a political standpoint as well, that sometimes we need both those who are rigidly advocating a particular thing and we need those who go, hm, maybe we need both to be able to come up with the best options at a moment in time. so I would say it's staying open and yet not, not trying to close yourself down. there I'm not being very clear right now. this here's an example back, probably 25 years ago, I was working in the domestic violence field a little bit and I was consulting and seeing families and people who. And you know, I'm not an advocate for domestic violence, I want to tell you certainly, but I also want to understand it. And so one of the things that I said at that time was, you know, the research is not changing, the data is not changing. We have as many, many incidences now today as we had 25 years ago. But that doesn't mean the work that the advocates were doing wasn't, didn't count. What they were doing was educating a new group of people. And as new people came in, as young people grew in, you know, it was going to, they too then needed to be educated. And so don't give up, I guess is what I'm saying, is what what you are thinking might have, you might be just putting it down a little bit off center and you just need to kind of keep working with it and keep wondering about it, keep researching it a little bit and keep tweaking it just a tiny bit so that it actually fits. and so what did we learn in that, you know, 25 years ago, we learned, don't give up, keep educating, keep, keep trying to help people learn what this looks like, what this, what, why it's dangerous. The same thing is true in our ethics. Our ethics don't, you know, the ethical incidences, ah, are similar to what they were 50 years ago because it's human beings. Human beings still have to learn. You know, that's about what being a human being is, is growing and learning. So I would think if you have a vision, don't give up on that vision, but don't rigidify too strongly so that you don't have the ability to shift it a little bit. I'm thinking of, somatic therapy. For example. You know, the man who started that, he lived in Reno when he was writing his first book. That would be 36 years ago, you know, around that time. I'm sure he had the vision then, but it wasn't until later that he was able to create it in such a way that people embraced it. So I think it's the combination of looking for how we can get it across, how we can do the research, and how we can change it a little bit so that it works.

Heather Haslem: Yeah, I'm hearing patience and trust in that too. I think trusting in that vision, trusting in the process and the work that's being done, and patience to sort of see it come to fruition.

Heather Haslem: And.

Dr. Meri Shadley: Being open to feedback. You know, like if. Like when I was in a. When I was teaching a class, if somebody said, well, I don't get this, you know, I can either say, well, that's their problem, or I can say, what do I need to do to help make this make more sense to that brain? That brain is a little different than my brain. And so if I'm open in that way and I'm patient and I'm willing, then I think, don't give up on your dream.

Heather Haslem: Well, Meri as we wrap our time today, do you have any final thoughts for our listeners?

Dr. Meri Shadley: Well, I think the last statement really, really is an important one. That to not give up on our dreams, to also believe in humanity, believe in the possibility of, change, believe in the possibility of growth, to know that community is a big piece of that, that as we work together, we can probably do just about anything and so we don't have to go it alone. it's only like NRAp was started not because I did something by myself or Daniel does something by himself is because we work together. His vision, my belief in his vision, and us being able to pull that together. I think we are a team and if we continue to think of ourselves as a team, we can do just about anything. That would be a big piece of it and keep don't and make it be joyful. Look for the joy and the possibility.

Heather Haslem: As always, Meri it has been a joy to be with you. I so appreciate you. thank you.

Dr. Meri Shadley: Thank you. I really have enjoyed doing this too. Foreign.

Heather Haslem: Thank you for listening to CASAT Conversations, your resource for exploring behavioral health topics. We hope you found today's conversation timely and meaningful. Please share this podcast with your friends and colleagues. If you want to learn more, visit us at our blog at casatondemand.org.

Speaker 2: CASAT Podcast Network this podcast has been brought to you by the CASAT Podcast Network, located within the center for the Application of Substance Abuse Technologies, a part of the School of Public Health at the University of Nevada, Reno. For more podcast information and resources, visit casat.org.