Heather Haslem: CASAT Podcast Network.

Heather Haslem: Welcome to season six of CASAT Conversations, where we sit down with professionals who have spent decades in their fields like mental health, addiction treatment, business, sociology, and more. In this special season, our guests share valuable wisdom from their careers, reflect on what has kept them grounded and inspired, and offer advice for future generations. Whether you're new to the field, uncertain, about your next steps, or feeling burned out, these conversations provide guidance and reassurance from those who've walked this path. Let's dive into today's episode. Today, I am so happy to welcome Denise Quirk. Denise is a therapist, consultant, educator, and advocate. Welcome, Denise. Delighted to be here.

Denise Quirk: Thank you. Thank you so much, Heather. It's a pleasure to be here and an honor appreciate you asking me.

Heather Haslem: So, as we start this conversation today, I'd love for you to share with us, a little bit about your career path, any highlights along the way, key experiences you've had that have defined and shaped your journey to date.

Denise Quirk: Thank you. So I'm a, I'm a Nevada girl. I was actually born in California, but spent most of my life in Nevada since I was a little girl. So in 1975, summertime, I graduated from Reno High and started my path at the University of Nevada, Reno. Go pack. And, so I was 17 when I started college and I thought that I was going to take a certain path. And I think many people might be relating to the fact that you get an idea of what you think you want to do and then you get exposed to the great life at the university and you get to find out where you want to go. So I changed my major like four times. By the time I got my bachelor's degree in 1984, I had, you know, done part time things. I had switched from journalism to psychology, with a minor in human development and family studies. And I had a wonderful, wonderful professor in HDFS who said, you're good at this counseling thing. Have you thought about going on to get a master's degree? And because I was one of the first people in my family to get a college degree, it hadn't even occurred to me to get a master's degree. So, along the way, of course, I met and married my husband, the father of my children, and we were both in graduate school together. So that meant we were both working, we were both going to graduate school and we started having children. So it was pretty wild. it took me until 1992 to get my master's degree done, had worked in various jobs along the way, which I think all of the jobs and all of the experiences that we have really do become pieces of how we relate to the world and what our experience is, and we can use all of it. So, at one point, I worked part time at the university police department. Liked it, applied for and got a job as a dispatcher at the Reno Police Department. Did that for several years, then went on to get a job at the Postal Service. I was a postal worker for 11 years. So government jobs, exposure to, first responders and all the good things that they do. You know, my heart is very soft for first responders and military. And so then after, finishing up, I'd been 11 years at the postal Service and, and it was time to wrap up my master's degree and start establishing my private practice. Getting going. I had friends at the post office that are like, why are you quitting the postal Service? It's such a great job. And I go, because I don't want to be here anymore. I want to move on and do what I've been learning to do. And, I'm still grateful. I still know zip codes. It's weird how you learn stuff and it's in there. but the thing for me that really launched it was, my mentor, Nancy Lee, who was a marriage and family therapist, said, you need to pick a specialty. We're going to work together, we're going to guide you. I'm going to be your clinical supervisor, but you need to pick a specialty. So my first job out of graduate school was at, St. Mary's McLean center, which was at the time one of the only inpatient rehabs, you know, full hospital inpatient rehab in Northern Nevada. And it was, you know, that was the early 90s. So it was in the process of, of going out, you know, 30 day inpatient rehabs. Insurance companies were no longer supporting them. But I had about 10 glorious months with what I consider, you know, rockstar team. We had Family Day. We had a whole slate. I mean, a raft of amazing addiction specialists, doctors, nurses, therapists of all kinds. And so we did adolescent and adult, units that we worked on, if anybody remembers, the St. Mary's McLean Center. It was amazing. Got my next job at West Hills Hospital, where, I was able to finish out all of the hours that I needed for my marriage and family therapy certification. And then I started my, licensed clinical alcohol and drug counselor certification. So I knew during the time that, that I had been at St. Mary's and going into, West Hills, that I wanted to specialize in addiction. And Nancy, Lee and I talked about how there were only two guys in town that were doing any gambling treatment. One of them was on the path to retirement, and another one was moving out of the state. So I just felt like, okay, it's addiction. It's Reno. There's hardly anybody else doing it. I'm going to look into this. So I chose that as a expertise. And that was 1998. I met Carol O'Hare, who was giving a talk for Harrah's as a public awareness talk. And I heard her story of recovery for the first time in 1998, and then kind of started following her and the Nevada Council. And it just so happened that that year the National Council on Problem Gambling was having their national conference in Las Vegas. And I showed up for that. And I heard people sat at the tables with. I didn't realize, you know, these were all international leaders in gambling research and treatment, and they just welcomed me. It's like I was the new kid, you know, they're like, come sit with us. So I got to know people at a really wonderful, social level in that first event, and that was it, you know, So I got my. My international gambling certification because they didn't have a state one at the time. I worked for the. I advocated and really campaigned for the. The state certification, in Nevada for the Certified Problem Gambling Counselor certification. So I'm basically giving you my whole resume here. But what. What eventually happened, what kind of kicked it off was my. My mentor said, have a tiny private practice at all times. And I'm glad she did because I got established as a private practitioner, and I worked in agencies and I worked in hospitals, and I worked eventually at a nonprofit, kept my private practice running the whole time, started teaching part time because, you know, you need cash flow when things are. Things are tight. So at any point along the way, I might have been working three or four jobs, and I'm glad I did. And it was crazy. Good. You know, it's crazy and good. And many life events happen through that. So that's kind of the overview. It was great.

Heather Haslem: Thank you for sharing your journey. I think, you know, I'm imagining that a lot of our listeners, and we have listeners from all over the nation, all over the world. So the international piece, I think, is interesting, too, for our listeners. but I think a lot of us on this journey can identify with, you know, thinking that we want to go in and do one thing, and then life continues to emerge and we get to explore what our interests are. And there's these really key people along the way. It sounds like, in your journey who helped either wake something up in you, mentored you with some sound advice that you've implemented in your, in your journey, that has brought you to where you are today.

Denise Quirk: I believe that our mentors are like angels. These are people that show up on our path that we resonate with for any reason. You know, they, they are kind and welcoming, or they give us really great knowledge, or they, they're doing the stuff that we want to do. So we want to grow up and be like them someday. And, and of course we put a lot into mentorship. When you're picking a clinical path like marriage and family therapy and addictions therapy, and you want to do the right thing because you're learning at a very early age in your, development as a therapist that you don't want to do any harm. So you want to find out what works and how. All these people have been successful. So yeah, mentorship to me has been this joyous experience of, many surprises along the way about how real people are, because you get to hang out with them in the break room in between therapy sessions, or you get to be at a conference and really see them all let their hair down. And that was really real, lots of fun. And then turn right around the next day and give this amazing presentation to an international body. So it's been reassuring to me all along that these are real people with real life stories who are doing really great things with the knowledge and the experience that they have. And that just about anybody who puts the effort in can do that.

Heather Haslem: Yeah. You know, I, you mentioned that so much of your career has been focused on problem gambling. And I'm curious what lights you up about working with people who have, experienced gambling addiction.

Denise Quirk: I would say that the family piece is really where it started because my family has addiction in it. Most families have addiction somewhere, but mine was very close. It was both of my parents, it was siblings, it was aunts and uncles. So a lot of addiction was around and familiar to me. And so I was in a way comfortable in the rooms with people who were either going to support groups like Alcoholics Anonymous or doing therapy or learning about the process of addiction. I was comfortable there. I felt at home. And that kind of gut feeling of, oh, these are my people, I feel at home. That's one thing. And then secondly, like I said before, there's a need, there's this giant need in Nevada, because we are one of the two states in the nation that has a extremely high prevalence rate of people who have gambling disorder. So it's, it's everywhere. It's in the grocery store, it's in the laundromat. You know, you can see gambling all the time. We're a college town. There is a lot of exposure to gambling. And especially now with, with sports betting, being legal everywhere. So, so it's talked about, it's seen. I would just say that because it's a behavioral addiction, it is also nicknamed the hidden addiction. So you can see, smell, or kind of follow certain signs and symptoms of a person who is actively, intoxicated by alcohol or a substance. You don't see it the same way with gambling disorder. And so I was really curious about this is a brain disorder and the neurology of it and how it all works, how somebody's whole brain can change in a very short period of time to very irrational when they were just this stable person one minute and then they're doing irrational things the next, without taking in any substances. So I've, I've always been curious, intrigued, and really grateful that I could learn any kind of skills that would help families affected by that disorder.

Heather Haslem: Thank you. I'm curious. Will you share a little bit of the brain science with us? For anyone who's not familiar with problem.

Denise Quirk: Gambling, such a big topic, the first thing I want to do is refer you to all the people that I know that really know the brain science. I am a humble practitioner of therapy. So I am not a neurologist and I'm not a researcher, but man, I appreciate what they do. So if you, if you want to see some of the latest and Greatest, look up Dr. Shane Kraus, K R A U S at UNLV, University of Nevada, Las Vegas. He is today doing amazing research and publishing and you can find all the latest stuff. So I think what people need to know is that, it is a treatable mental health disorder. So when you, when you call somebody, who is an expert who can do a diagnosis of a mental disorder like gambling disorder, you are going to get first an assessment and then a diagnosis and then a treatment plan. And you're gonna get all this hope that this is a treatable disease. So 20ish years ago, many of us were surprised when different scans of the brain were done, SPECT scans and PET scans in particular, that when they showed a person who is actively abusing cocaine and a person who was active, actively gambling in their, you know, intoxicated state of gambling, their brains looked a lot alike. So there were, there were things happening with their frontal cortex and with their nucleus accumbens. So the, the, the emotional mood part of their brain and the executive, function of their brain were activated similarly. And so then that really started some of the neuroscience research. Thank goodness we've had two decades ish for some of that to be shared with us where we can say, no, this is a deadly disorder. Just like drugs, you don't have to ingest anything because your brain, when activated in that way, has so many neurotransmitters. You know, some of the most famous ones that we're familiar with, the hormones and neurotransmitters like dopamine. Well, if something tastes good or feels good and you get a rush of dopamine, mean, that's one level. But imagine how it feels if you put something into a machine and you get a month's worth of income given to you in an instant, the hit of all the chemicals inside your body that are being lit up. And then you want to have that feeling again, because perhaps you don't have good, responsible gambling behavior, or perhaps you're in distress or perhaps you're in grief. So you decide, well, that felt good. I think I want to do that again. And then a whole series of thinking patterns start to change. Like, whereas in kindergarten, you might not ever say, I want to grow up to be an addicted or compulsive gambler, terms that we use to describe someone who has gambling disorder. But you might say, I want to be rich. So then this bridge starts happening with your own value system where, where you go, well, I could do this on weekends, or I could take my, you know, my, entertainment money and I could go do this. And unfortunately, it is a very quick path from a big win to an addictive disorder. So there you go.

Heather Haslem: Thank you. I hope that that's helpful for our listeners and we can link. So, Dr. Kraus, that you mentioned, in our show notes, what has been the most surprising aspect of where your career has led you?

Denise Quirk: I mentioned a little bit that I started with a mentor who said, have a private practice even while you're. Even while I was working in a hospital or an agency or eventually running my own nonprofit. That was probably one of the biggest surprises when, when I became known in Reno as a gambling expert, there was a world renowned gambling expert, Dr. Rob Hunter, who was running the Problem Gambling center in Las Vegas, and he called me up and says, would you like to open an office of our agency in Reno? And I said, well, what would that entail? You know, he. He had a, he had a wonderful. So mind you, I'm. I'm a one woman private practice. I'm working in an agency treating substance use disorder folks. And he's like, sure, we'll just open this nonprofit. So he shared with me that his very generous board was willing to fund us for the first two years. That's a dream for anybody. so that was 2005, so there was a lot going on. So between 2004, 2005, Dr. Hunter and I had been serving on various committees that were starting to negotiate the legislation for certified problem gambling counselors and other wonderful things to happen in the state of Nevada. So I said yes, not fully understanding what I was getting into, which is a blessing. So, got it up and running thanks to him and the international. The Rob Hunter, Dr. Robert Hunter International Problem Gambling center that still exists today in Las Vegas. It is an amazing, amazing group of people. So the surprising thing was I didn't take business classes when I was an undergrad, so I didn't know how to run a business. I was winging it thanks to mentors and clinical supervisors. I certainly didn't know how to run a nonprofit. Many people who know me will tell you there were bumps along the way. However, we managed to get through the recession of 2008. We got through Covid, and it didn't close until 2022, when, by attrition, and I say by, the graying of our mental health squad in Nevada, they're. There are not as many of us who are able and willing to run nonprofits. So when it was time for me to make a change, because I'd been doing that for 16 years and I was looking for a replacement, it didn't happen. So I really think that, that was a God thing, you know, that was. All of our lives are affected by, divine things. And for me, it was time to say goodbye to the Reno Problem Gambling center and move on to another chapter of my life.

Heather Haslem: Thank you. You know, There's a few things that I hear in there for young professionals or even, professionals who have been in the field for a little while. and that is curiosity, right? Like staying open. What would this entail? networking, joining committees is a big one. and community.

Denise Quirk: Oh, so real. I mean, those are the things that I think, as one of the elders, being 67 now in this field, that I love still teaching because I teach online through UNR and doing a little bit of clinical supervision. And I love saying that curiosity factor was one of the things I remember in graduate school. Always stay curious, other things about the networking and the connecting with elders in your chosen field. it's a two way reward. While I love learning and constantly gaining and applying knowledge that I'm getting in my field because it helps people in families and communities heal. One person or one group at a time, that's really what is the most rewarding thing for me. I am getting blessed. I am learning. So it's this constant exchange of positive energy and learning and growth and stretching yourself. And stretching is definitely key as you get older. It's a good thing.

Heather Haslem: Yeah. And mentoring continues to come up with many of these conversations that we're having this season and the importance of mentor finding a mentor as well as being a mentor. and I know you've, you've mentored and supervised so many, clinicians along the way. Will you speak a little bit more to what that's meant to you?

Denise Quirk: I think mentoring takes you from a place of the edge of arrogance, where you think you know something, you know, and you do have a little bit of knowledge and you do need, in my opinion, to share that knowledge with future generations. It takes you to a place of humility immediately. It takes you to that place of oh, my mentors always talked about countertransference and transference and having boundaries and having a plan and following it and staying on time and showing up 15 minutes early. You know, all the things that we were taught. We get to sit with another human being who says, I want to do some of what you're doing, help me and find out what their style is compared with what my style is. And you know, how does that mesh and then doing just enough, you know, because, it's not my job to fully grow a person. So, you know, I would get that, that clue every now and then. I'm able to do this part and that person gets to do the rest with again with divine guidance and all of the work that they're going to put into it. I love supervision. So I love being able to have a supervision group weekly, which is what we did for many years, that first of all it's respite. You know, I think it's like caregiver respite time. So we, we would always have a topic and we would always have something that we were preparing for what the state exam was going to cover. And then we would just be able to ramble on about how it is working in our various agencies. it was a safe place where we could say, I can't believe this happened today. We all needed that around the water cooler kind of imagery safely, without using other people's names or, you know, any private information, just being able to talk about it. So it was, it was kind of like a little bit of mini therapy session without doing therapy. Just a place to support each other.

Heather Haslem: And that is also a common theme that I'm hearing, from people in the field who are craving that sense of community among their peers, as well as the importance of that in I'll say surviving the field.

Denise Quirk: Truly, truly. Because we're going to be given opportunities for growth every single day. So how when we hit a low spot or a tired spot or a health issue or a grief issue in our own life. Yeah. Quite often it's those people that we ally with in our work that we are going to share just enough, oh, there's been a death in the family or something has happened and I just need you guys to, you know, walk into my office every now and then and if my head's down on my desk, please just come over and say, how are you? What do you need? so we can let people know what we need.

Heather Haslem: How, you know, that brings up this important question of how have you honored your own humanity while serving so many others?

Denise Quirk: Thank you for that because you kind of alluded to burnout. is real and we must always be kind of budgeting for it in a way. So I'm a big fan of as I've gone through so many things, I'm a big fan of who is your faith community, who is your spending plan, financial planner kind of person, guru in your life? Because I think the people who are, who are innovators with who are entrepreneurs and innovators and they like to come up with big ideas and let's try this. If there's a person like that that's in your life, and we've got a couple and my husband's in my life, that are always thinking big and trying new things. I love that energy. So we have tried a lot of things thanks to knowing people like that. I love the fact that my faith community, no matter where I go on the face of the earth, there is a faith community somewhere and there is nature. And so I can always walk outside and get a breath of fresh air. And I learned one of my favorite tools is take the garbage out. You know, there's something that I can pick up in the house and walk outside and throw in the garbage can and take a breath. Oh, thank heaven. So I also love, because it's one of my personal challenges throughout my life, getting to know the financial innovators, the financial guides. Like, I. I just love Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University. So I took it, I taught it, I use his EveryDollar app for money. But, you know, it ties into so many, other things, because a spending plan. Thank you, Debtors Anonymous. An amazing 12 subgroup. A spending plan is how you're. How you're going to be with other people like you and talk about your money, also talking about your dreams and goals. I observed a person in Debtors Anonymous one time who had other addictive, challenges, and she had set aside a budget of $25 a week for Starbucks. And that blew my mind. Like, what, you give yourself permission to spend $25. And this was years ago, so meeting people who are trying to do the same balancing act. And I think it's an active verb. You know, it's not. You don't ever achieve balance until you're dead. You are balancing all the time. She found that something that she could give herself was that. And so the whole category idea of what do you want? You want more knitting and more books? That's me. Then make a category for it, and then there's no guilt and no shame. Shame. Shame, in my world of treating families is one of the biggest nemeses that I am punching in the face all the time. So to put nice boundaries around a spending plan is freeing, and it gets you through all kinds of really uncomfortable things.

Heather Haslem: Denise, I'd love for you to speak a little bit more to the shame and how you worked with clients to address shame.

Denise Quirk: Yeah, it's. It's a. It's a negative experience that we all have, in varying degrees throughout our life. So I tried to immediately normalize it and give it some kind of a continuum in the client's own words. And we had to use our own personal definitions, like, what is shame and what is guilt? And for me, guilt is you have your value system. You break one of your rules or one of the rules of society, and you're going to get consequences. And you're also going to be given the opportunity to make restitution, to clean it up and be done. shame. Different. Shame is like the dark side of that. You know, I use this little sock puppet, hand motion, like, you Know, on the one side you've got this. This dark energy saying, you're worthless, you're no good, there's no hope for you. You're just stupid. You know, why did you do all those negative things? And then on the other side, you've got this light, being, which I call an angel that is like, you know, that's a lie. So hang in there. We're going to get through this. You know, all the. The values of light that you have. So if you can compare the light and dark thing and get it into definable terms and become. And raise your consciousness about when you're hearing yourself use those kind of terms and develop an action plan. Oh, I'm doing that thing again. Because we are creatures of habit with, the negative self talk and the. So with addictive disorders, choices have been made that have been devastating for that person and the people around them. Sometimes quantifiably ginormous devastation and crawling out of that and coming to therapy and being really courageous in therapy and saying, I need help. You know, that's. I thank people for showing up and asking for help. because it takes a lot of energy and a lot of courage and willingness to say, I was wrong. Well, addressing shame to me is on the same kind of idea. All right. We need to talk about it every now and then. We need to quantify it so we can shrink it. And eventually. I know some people who. Shame is like a surprise in their life now. Like, oh, I haven't done that in a long time. So I give as many stories as I can about how you can get through that too.

Heather Haslem: M. Thank you.

Denise Quirk: Sure.

Heather Haslem: There's like a third piece that I think kind of is relevant here with shame and guilt, and that's judgment.

Denise Quirk: Oh, yeah.

Heather Haslem: But then also, you know, outward, if you think about the stigma of. I'll just say addiction in general, the judgment that can be compounded really seems to feed that cycle pretty significantly.

Denise Quirk: Well said, Heather. The one quality in counselor school, in trainings that you go to to keep your certification up, we are constantly being reminded in research, people do not want to be judged. There are very few times in your life where you have to be judged. But we don't want to be judged and we don't want to be judgmental and we don't want to receive that horrible stuff. So just being mindful of not judging is great.

Heather Haslem: Yeah. And I don't know about anyone else listening, but I feel like judgment is going to be a practice. Non judging will be a practice of a Lifetime for me.

Denise Quirk: Practice of a lifetime. Yeah. It's one thing to assess your situation or assess the person walking towards you as dangerous or not. You know, there's, that's called judgment, but I think it's more like assessment. You know, you have to make, you have to make a judgment call. You have to make an assessment on certain things. And certainly as a therapist you have to make the call every day. How am I doing? Am I meeting my clients needs? Am I meeting my own needs? So that's that the boundaries, issues, the caretaking of yourself and you know, how much are you getting into their stuff? And that's that transference, encounter, transference stuff. It's fascinating how fluid and dynamic and stretching and opportunities for growth. Yeah. For as long as I can still put a few good thoughts together. I hope I can assist others in some kind of way through teaching, through, some kind of mentoring, giving talks. I give a lot of talks and I want to, I want to encourage that, that constant stretching.

Heather Haslem: Yeah. I, something I've been working with my own personal life and then also in my professional life is judgment versus discernment. and it's more about that self awareness piece of noticing if I'm judging and looking a little more deeply at, you know, is this a bias? Is this a belief that I'm holding? So much personal development that I think is required when we're in these human services field. It never stops. I haven't stop, but yeah, no.

Denise Quirk: And what an adventure and what a, what a privilege, what an opportunity to sit with another human being, notice things about yourself and them and be able to talk about it and work through things together. Being a therapist is a great job.

Heather Haslem: I would love, if you want to share what you mentioned, that you've closed one chapter and you're getting ready to embark on another. And so what do you hope that looks like for you?

Denise Quirk: So the, the chapter that I closed is the brick and mortar chapter. You know, I, I'm no longer in an outside office. I, I have a tiny home office that I call, my garage office because my husband and I took two years out to go on a spiritual quest that we had planned for years and we served a mission for our church. We just got back in the summer and we came back to. Our home was set up Airbnb style so that people could use it while we were gone. All our stuff is still packed in the garage and we're gradually bringing it in. So, so the chapter of retirement because, now I'm officially in that mode of being semi retired, is, you know, they tell you in counselor school all the time, prepare for closing. You know, you're opening and you gotta prepare for the closing of your business. And thank goodness for those business models. And if anybody listening hasn't already done one, please find one of those great business leaders that helps you make a plan for how you're going to close your business. You know, it's part of risk management for you and for your clients also, if you're deteriorating in any way. But. But I think it's a great one for, oh, what do you really want? How do you want it to happen? How much do you want to be living off of in retirement? So, you know, it helps you do all that financial planning stuff. But also, closing a business is a grief experience. So you, you identify with what you've done for all these years. You really need people to hold your hands and you need activities and especially service opportunities. I'm a big proponent of service, so if I had somebody else to go serve, I could get out of my own head while I was going through all that, because it took months and it's still going because now it's okay. I'm teaching one class, and then people in, in our age group, you know, they start saying, oh, you're retired. Can you do this? Do you want to do that? Yeah, I'm not exactly retired yet, so I still have to have good boundaries about saying what I do and don't want to do with my time and my energy, because my energy has shifted a little. Thank goodness for taking walks and doing yoga, because it keeps me, you know, able to feel like there's some hope that I'm still going to be able to be flexible. and I see people way older than me that are doing remarkable things with personal fitness and challenges and stuff. So those are fun things. And definitely when I came back from Detroit, having been gone for two years, I loved that I could pick right back up with my faith community, with some of my girlfriends, you know, a lot of lunches and, and read more books. So I'm in two book clubs now. I'm in two knitting groups now, you know. Yeah, that's a lot of fun.

Heather Haslem: Yeah, really this importance of having meaningful activities and really being conscious and intentional about how you're spending your time.

Denise Quirk: Yeah. And boy, the service piece, I, was able to maintain my serving on the Governor's advisory committee for problem gambling, that. That has been close to my heart. So even though I let go of the brick and Mortar aspect of doing treatment I was able to maintain thanks to the digital age. And you know, the pandemic took a lot from us, but it also brought us up to the next level of staying connected by telehealth. So I get to still serve and I get to still show up and advocate, and that makes me really happy.

Heather Haslem: As you look back at all of the different chapters, in your journey so far, what has been most meaningful about your work?

Denise Quirk: I think, I think I want to put it in terms of, the constantly gaining and applying knowledge that helps people, families and communities heal. One person or one group at a time. That's kind of part of my personal value system. It is amazing and miraculous to watch people's suffering come through the pain and go forward into their next best chapter, you know, their next best, how they want to lead their life, having unburdened themselves of some things and having gained some new things and just more awareness of who they are as amazing individuals. So I kind of like that brother and sister kind of feel we are all equal in that way in my mind. So a person coming in and asking me for help still has so many strengths and so many great attributes. I get to help them find those. Yeah, it's really an amazing, opportunity. I kind of call myself a cheerleader every now and then, but I'm sure there's other ways that would better describe it. It's about encouraging and advocating for the person and just watching them grow. It's so rewarding.

Heather Haslem: Love that, what are some of the challenges that you've encountered in your work and how have you managed them?

Denise Quirk: So as I kind of alluded to, none, of us has perfect skills for running businesses and keeping all of the balls, juggling at the best way. So when, when something would fall, when something would become ill, when some grief or loss event would happen with me or with my clients or with my co workers. I went through a divorce and got remarried. I've had two children of my own. When I got remarried, I acquired two wonderful more children. So all of those changes concurrent with wanting to move forward with my career path means that, I had some difficult times, so if I were to say anything about, you know, making mistakes, going through hard times, embracing my own humanity and getting to a part of asking for help, receiving the help, doing my own work, I will continue to do that until I die, and then just going forward with gratitude, being able to rely on others when, when I had made mistakes, when I had, had loss, I didn't have to do it alone. And that repeated awareness of we're all going through something and let's do it, let's move forward. So, yeah, I could spend a good hour going through all the mistakes that I made. Many, hours. But having forgiven myself for some of it and hoping to not make the same mistakes again in the same way, you know, learning how to do that forgiveness piece for yourself with the help of others.

Heather Haslem: Yeah. Thank you. And there's this piece, I think, that is. And this is in my experience, and in working with several other people. I think so many of us that come into the helping professions, are very giving with our time, our energy, our love, you know, our resources. and then when we go through those difficult life experiences and we all go through them, right, that's then that ability to then receive, can be its own beautiful practice to learn along the way, truly.

Denise Quirk: Dr. John Chappell, who was an amazing psychiatrist and part of the. The original team that I worked with at the St. Mary's McLean center, when we were trying to develop treatment plans and give assignments to people who were getting ready to leave the hospital after having had their very initial substance use treatment, he talked about what you just mentioned. He said, you are giving them guidance orders, plans. You are saying, here's what you need to do. And they in turn, are giving you back all of that grace and that sweet reward of when they say yes and they go on and do something. It's not about you per se, but you did give them something that helped them on the way. Dr. Chappell was an amazing educator and psychiatrist. He was also in recovery himself. I've met so many people along the way like that, who, when you just saddle up next to them and ride down the path with for a while, you just get so many blessings and so many great things that you learn.

Heather Haslem: Thank you. How has your work in mental health influenced your personal life and identity outside of your career?

Denise Quirk: my kids say, stop doing that psychology stuff, Mom. You know, when they were younger. And I would go, it's who I am. So, please forgive me. I'm your mom and I do the shrink thing all the time. So it is gonna come out that way. We had a family meeting one time, and I love family meetings. Cause I wanna hear what the teenagers were planning to do and how we could coordinate schedules and stuff. So I'd say, I'd turn to one child and I'd say, okay, go. What do you need this week? And she's like, it's not my department, mom. I'm a person, you know, she. And I'm like, I go, well, this works for me. Tell me then how it's gonna work better. so many aspects of what I learned helped me as a parent and also reminded me that, you know, I needed to get down on a different level sometimes. so, when my mom passed away, I only had 87 days from the day she was diagnosed with leukemia until she passed and she lived in California. And I was going back and forth. I had the blessing of a wonderful social worker who I won't name because she would probably be embarrassed. But, I worked under her at West Hills Hospital. She had already lost her mom and she, she would walk up to me and pull me into her office and say, here's what we're going to do today. You know, she was very, you need to, you need to talk to your mom and you need to have that goodbye conversation, that forgiveness conversation, whatever conversation. You need to do that before her brain starts to melt, you know, because that's what happens sometimes. And then she would check in with me and how are you doing? You know, now go this weekend and talk to her. You know, I mean, I needed that so much. So all the mental health people that I have worked with side by side over the years, all the therapists, all the people in any agency, when you're, when you're around it as part of your career, you get the added blessing of they help you through your stuff. It's been amazing.

Heather Haslem: Yeah. That reciprocity and having people show up for you.

Denise Quirk: Oh, so cool.

Heather Haslem: So as we get ready to close today, what advice or words of wisdom would you like to offer the next generation?

Denise Quirk: Yeah, I have some favorites, I think, having a morning routine that involves, your brain, you know, whatever it is that you're going to do, whether it's reading or writing or meditating, some kind of little conscious contact, definitely the meditating piece so that you can be clear before you launch into your day. And always some kind of exercise and nutrition because we are a unit that needs all those things. We've been asleep for eight hours. We need some water. So I have a morning routine that I love that if I can do it, it's two hours. So you can't always get the whole two hour morning routine, but you can do some version of it. And there's a guy that wrote several books about the miracle morning, Hal Elrod. He's got some very good designs on that. I think enjoying the journey and staying curious is part of my life motto. There's always joy somewhere, and I want to stay curious and open. my mentor said specialize. I think that's a great idea. Pick a specialty, because then you put that up on the wall and that's who you are. That's part of your identity and that's who people look to when you're doing networking things. And plus, you just get to feel kind of good. Yeah, I knew two more things than that other guy about that one thing. so follow the research and the legislation that goes along with that. Join the clubs. Join service clubs, professional organizations, your church, your outdoor group, your fitness challenges, your girlfriend groups. Please stay connected to the people that you love in all those different ways. When you join a club, it's different than being on the periphery. So join it. stay connected to your elders. Thank heaven for elders of all different kinds. Write and review and use your spending plan every week. Whatever that is, whatever tiny version or big version of your spending plan, please do it. your clinical supervisor, your grandparents, the people ahead of you on the path are going to help you with that. If you want to ask them how they've done spending plans and budgets, ask them. It's pretty awesome. I love Financial Peace University. That's my favorite style. Use, experts to guide you. You are not the expert of everything, as children will often remind you. You are not the boss of everything. So go get, go hire people. Thank heaven there are people of all different kinds of expertise out there and use them and, ah, give yourself some grace about being out of balance sometimes and find your way back from the extremes toward the. The center.

Heather Haslem: Wow.

Heather Haslem: Yeah.

Heather Haslem: Thank you, Denise. Really, you're so welcome here. It's been a joy to talk with you today.

Denise Quirk: Likewise, Heather, thanks for all the kindness and the love.

Heather Haslem: Thank you for listening to CASAT Conversations, your resource for exploring behavioral health topics. We hope you found today's conversation timely and meaningful. Please share this podcast with your friends and colleagues. If you want to learn more, visit us at our blog at casatondemand.org.

Heather Haslem: CASAT Podcast Network this podcast has been brought to you by the CASAT Podcast Network, located within the Center for the Application of Substance Abuse Technologies, a part of the School of Public Health at the University of Nevada, Reno. For more podcast information and resources, visit casat.org.