Season six of CASAT Conversations features professionals from various fields

Heather Haslem: CASAT Podcast Network. Welcome to season six of CASAT Conversations, where we sit down with professionals who have spent decades in their fields like mental health, addiction treatment, business, sociology, and more. In this special season, our guests share valuable wisdom from their careers, reflect on what has kept them grounded and inspired, and offer advice for future generations. Whether you're new to the field, uncertain, about your next steps, or feeling burned out, these conversations provide guidance and reassurance from those who've walked this path. Let's dive into today's episode.


Agata Goronsky has been in substance use counseling for 17 years

Today we welcome Agata Gawronski Executive Director for the State of Nevada Board of Examiners for Alcohol, Drug and Gambling Counselors. Welcome Agata. I'm delighted to have you here today.

Agata Gawronski: Good morning. Thank you for having me.

Heather Haslem: So, as we dive in, I'd love to hear, about your career path and the key experiences that have shaped your journey.

Agata Gawronski: in the substance use. I was just thinking about it before getting on this morning and I realized that it's been 17 years in the field of substance use disorders and problem gambling. It was overwhelming to hear that number in my head. it was a journey. I came to this country from Poland with a degree M. In social work, and that quickly I decided it's just going to be a lot of work to I would have to start over in social work field, to get to the master level. And that was something I was not going to do. So looking around, I came across substance, success is used order internship. And it quickly kind of, it became a really. It started snowballing really quick for me. And then I didn't really. I discovered a passion for, for the field. so I, you know, jumped around from different, while doing my internship from different, treatment modalities. So I did outpatient, I worked for methadone clinic. I work for. I did intensive outpatient program. I, work for psychiatric hospital at the chemical dependency unit. and then at my last job, I started to realize that as far as, the field goes, I still feel strongly connected to, but direct care was not, as satisfying. And I started to experience clinical burnout. and I realized that I am still passionate about the field, but I don't want to do, counseling anymore. And I needed to figure out what would be next. it just was really very much. The universe showed up for me and the previous director of the board was retiring, and I just decided to just go for it. And that was in 2011, September of 2011, and never Looked back and this is where I Still am in 2025, which again, those are big numbers. when I think about was a surprising twist in my career. I don't know. I had that feeling from the very beginning of my adventure in the field that I would like to try different modalities and then eventually probably run a treatment center. That was my focus at the time. But when this opportunity you know, happen, it's. It was It was kind of like I felt like this is what this is. This, this fit very well.

Heather Haslem: Yeah.


What's most meaningful about your current role? Um, I think the ability

Thanks for sharing your journey. I love hearing, you know, kind of all the different places that you've been. I'm curious what's most meaningful about your current role?

Agata Gawronski: I think the ability to make a change in the field. And I think the fact that I have an experience on both sides of the table and going through the internship and having provisional license and then full licensure and doing treatment and direct care and being a provider myself and then crossing that over and really being able to see, see the gaps that I was experiencing as an intern and as a counselor that were very apparent in the field. and then turning around and being able to actually implement changes. It's definitely. It feels good. And I think that was my main motivation. I saw a lot of issues with supervision as an internal and then counselor and I saw a lot of issues with extended internship. Originally we had 10 years allowance for internship. and how that really wasn't benefiting interns. There was no rush to, or motivation to get going and continue with education and moving on, getting licensed. Changing that by getting into this role and being able to actually implement administrative changes and legislative changes that now I believe that streamlined and definitely professionalized the field was probably the highlight of being in this role.


What's one of the changes that you're most proud of at CASAT

Heather Haslem: What's one of the changes that you're most proud of?

Agata Gawronski: there are couple. I think that developing and sustaining a very fruitful relationship with CASAT, learning and being able to. Really my experience going in coming into this role was that everybody was working separately and doing their own thing and there wasn't much of collaboration and going in and meeting everyone in cassette and just realizing we all have the same goal. We all want professionals, well educated, well rounded individuals to provide care in the community. I think doing that and that relationship really had blossomed over the years. And the fact that we developed a ton of courses and we're able to really hone in on the supervision which I think was and still is obviously, an issue in our state. We don't have enough supervisors. But just, changing the education requirements and really raising the bar, I believe, made, a, ah, huge difference in the outcome and the quality of providers that we now have.

Heather Haslem: Yeah. So raising the bar for education, streamlining supervision, and the importance of collaboration and community is what I'm hearing for, licensed alcohol, drug and gambling counselors.

Agata Gawronski: And I think it carries over with another forms as well.


Paula says COVID helped her understand obstacles interns face preparing for tests

And the fact that, again, I do have experience all the way, helped me also understand and see the obstacles that interns are, facing. in 2020, right before COVID hit Paula, she's my assistant, my licensing specialist. And I, sat down and just thought, hey, how can we see people are unable to pass the test? And why is that? And what's going on? And continuously blaming it on supervision was not getting us anywhere or getting interns anywhere they should be. And it's also understanding that it is a tight, busy, underpaid, understaffed field. And, trying to shift that responsibility on supervisors in preparing interns for tests was simply impossible. And it wasn't a feasible, solution. So, you know, we sat down and said, you know, one day we just decided, how about we just create a course for and see what we would benefit from when we were interns and what would have been helpful for us. And we just went one by one. And I think that was one of the also very satisfying products of that collaboration. And, you know, CASAT jumped on it immediately. And, I believe that I do hear that it's been very helpful, from the field. So, again, I think it's a community approach and not just working in our little boxes and doing our job, but just really having a wholesome outlook on how we can all just take it home, really, together.

Heather Haslem: I'm really hearing this upstream approach of, you know, sitting down, looking critically at an issue and trying to understand, maybe what's going on and not just point fingers and say, you. You need to be doing this better, but looking at it more holistically to come up with a solution that then benefits the counselors in the field. Right. But also the clients that they serve and ultimately whole communities.

Agata Gawronski: Correct. Yep. Very cool.


With all the collaboration that you've done, what strategies do you use to build trust

Heather Haslem: So with all the collaboration that you've done, what strategies do you use as a leader to help build trust?

Agata Gawronski: I'm very transparent and very direct. I am not very good at politics. So, you know, if I come to Janine and say, listen, people are really messing up treatment plans, we need to figure this out. And we sit down and say, okay, what's missing? What is? Let's look at the data from the exams. You know, let's look at the shortfalls. What is it that we're not teaching? What is it that we're not conveying? so very direct and very practical approach. And really what do you see is what you get with me. So it's so I think that helps people open up, seeing that there is no hidden agenda. I am not doing this to advance my career. I am here to, like you mentioned earlier, to just for the benefit of the community. So the better we do our job as administrators and educators, the better outcome we're going to have in the field and we're going to produce ultimately better providers. And that is what we want because that is who is going to help the most vulnerable population that we're serving, which is substance use disorders and problem gambling.

Heather Haslem: Yeah, I love that.


You talked about clinical burnout when you were doing direct care

I'd like to, if you're okay with it, I'd like to kind of rewind to your career when you were doing direct care and you talked about clinical burnout. And that's a topic near and dear to our hearts on cassette conversations. We did a whole season on it. and what advice do you have for providers who are in direct care in order to take care of themselves?

Agata Gawronski: Self care. So, you're only as good, you know, as a provider as you are as a human. And you're only as whole as a provider as you are as a human. And I believe that, you know, we still, I think it's getting better. I think that self care, I mean it is a catchphrase now really, but for a good reason. And I believe that we lived and I'm speaking to, you know, that was going on 10 years ago and I don't know how different it is now. But there is a culture, of being, you know, there's certain pride in being busy, being busy and running around and getting more done and you know, not affording ourselves to sit down and, and every moment m must be used and utilized. And that is so dangerous in this field because I made a joke a while ago in public that I truly believe that mental health providers should retire just as early as first responders. Because the burnout is, is the same. we see and hear a lot of trauma. your body stores all this information so if you don't regularly clean it up and then, you know, there's different methods and people believe in different things. But for me, you know, meditating and doing yoga, but that was too late. I did not have those resources. I did not have, I didn't know that was available to me when I was practicing. And it was always how else can I help, what else can I do? that's what led me to understand I did not have a balance. So I think first of all going into this field is a big decision. I believe now that we have up, ah, the standards to go for people that they have to have certain amount of hours or degree already going in. There is a lot more self awareness of where they are or they're more mature and deciding what they want to do in the future. This is not a, you know, patch in the hole in your resume kind of gig. This is a real job. And it's important to know that as much you're giving other to others, you're taking away from yourself. And how are you going to fill this back up? so I think that's important. The boundaries, personal boundaries, but also professional boundaries, being able to say no, you're not helping someone if you're seeing 30 clients a week, you're not going to be as effective. because as a human you only have so much to give. and I think we forget about it. And I understand why, because I've worked in places and I understand why that there is always, you know, people are short staffed, they're underpaid, there's funding, there's there's certain grant requirements you have to meet. So you have, there's, it's, it boils down to numbers a lot. And that is what I believe leads into a, directly into a burnout. And I also would advocate, and that was a conversation we had a while ago with other professionals is to maybe advocate for, you know, have a legislature where we actually cap the caseloads. So then there is no doubt and there is no gray area to where does this stop. because this is not a 9 to 5 job. There's always something you're going to take home and how you're going to replace what you gave is kind of, I think the best advice I can give is to keep yourself whole.

Heather Haslem: Yeah. And you're also pointing to, I think the importance of looking at the systems that people work in. Right. There's the things that you can do to take care of yourself, whatever that might be for each individual. And there's these larger systems that people work in that sometimes contribute to, significantly to that burnout. And so looking at the Whole picture is how we serve. It seems to me it's how we maybe solve burnout. I don't even know if we solve burnout.

Agata Gawronski: And that's what I, you know, that's been a conversation in the field for a very long time. And because again there is this schism of how do we serve. Is it better to do a little of everything or is it better to actually put a hard stop and do what we can but quality? And I think that is a really impossible question or puzzle to solve right now. because of the shortage that we have in the field. Because there is a lot of, when you mentioned that comes from the top is that there is a lot of systemic changes that we should implement. Just like I said, really, if we had clear law about the case that was clear law about supervision, law about, you know, the capacity of treatment facilities, I believe that that would make a difference. And I also believe that teaching and mentoring people starting early in college about self care and making it as much as priority as other mandatory classes, you have to take as much as, you know, calculus or English. And I think that would, that would actually change the culture of, of the field.

Heather Haslem: Well, I wholeheartedly agree. I've taught foundations of personal health and wellness for community health sciences and so future health care professionals going in and learning how to really take care of themselves and what that looks like for each individual.


How do you stay motivated and resilient when you're faced with challenges

I'm imagining you've seen some challenges, especially when creating, helping to support, create new laws. How do you stay motivated and resilient when you're faced with challenges?

Agata Gawronski: Well, it depends. It's, it's not, it's not always happening. I think self care goes, comes back to self care, but also the motivation. I think I, am very, very fortunate to be surrounded by a lot of strong, educated, self aware individuals, both in the field and outside of our field. But people that are in the field, they've been my mentors, my board members, people that I had worked with previously or in recovery, are a constant reminder that this does work. You never, I don't believe I said I would love to believe that we will see it more and on a large scale. but when you see the success stories, when you hear that you were able or your professionals were able to help someone and that it does change lives, I think that is what keeps me going, and seeing young people and having a lot of admiration for when I, if I teach a course or if I speak to people and I see that fresh, the Excitement that comes with it. And it's kind of, again, kind of like solving a puzzle when you diagnose someone and then trying to figure out how to. How to develop a treatment plan. And seeing that curiosity, ah, it gives me hope that people really do care and that nobody in this field is in for money or big career, let's be honest. So for me, I think the personal motivation is to preserve what we have. And that would be the individuals. They do stay close and motivated and willing and eager to help and advance and keep it going.

Heather Haslem: I love that.


You talked about hearing people's stories and how they've impacted you

I'm curious if there's a story that has stuck with you. You know, you talked about, like, hearing people's stories and how they've impacted. Like, I'm wondering if there's a story that sort of stuck with you that you can still feel today.

Agata Gawronski: yes, I. When I was, teaching my class, I had. Someone came up to me and gave me a big hug and said, thank you for everything. Look where I am today. And it took me a bit. And that was my former patient from over a decade ago, you know, at the clinic. And here she was, getting her license as an alcohol and drug counselor, and sitting in my class and taking a test the very next day. So I have chills just saying that. you know, I'm not saying I've forgotten about her, but that is the part of my life and my career path that I just kind of locked away and being. Because I wasn't feeling like I was contributing. When I was approaching my burnout stage, I felt like I'm not helping. I'm not doing anything good here. And so to hear that over a decade later, and to see the light in her eyes and, my admiration, but just genuine, love. And, you know, and that was. That was huge. That will. I will. That would stay with me forever. And I had a couple other, you know, running into people and of course, unethically, I can't, you know, say hi or anything. And people will approach me and thank me. And I just don't know that we always see ourselves the way people see us. so those are very, big reminders that I'm grateful m for. And that's. I think that that's what keeps me tick.

Heather Haslem: Thank you for sharing that story. I'm curious what you might say to. I had a colleague who, would call herself like, that was like 2024 Jenny. Right. And so I'm thinking of this. This Agata back in the time who feels like she's not helping. She's not doing any good. what would you say to her today?

Agata Gawronski: I'll give her a, hug today. I would hang out with her for sure. I would probably tell her to just reach out and seek more mentorship. And that's what I've learned later in life. That kind of also the really just amongst peers and knowing that you do feel isolated if you don't share your experiences with other professionals that are most of them going through this or will go through it or through it and moved on. And I think that just me trying to either tough it out or then just absolutely deciding that this is it. I probably, I wish I had someone by my sight at that time in a mentor role. And, I would just tell myself, just use that. This is probably the most valuable, advice that I get is from people that been there, done that. So I think that of course, self care. I said that again. you can edit that, but I wish I was a little bit, less of, oh, I got to get it done. I need to make this work and just really pause and sit with it and realize that especially the last job that I had was an, intensive outpatient program. So it was, you know, mandated clients, nobody wants to be there. And they do get very strenuous, almost impossible for some, requirements. and then thinking, oh, they have to check the boxes, but also now having the maturity and experience of. But they also have lives and not being so, you know, stuck on checking off the boxes and making sure that they're going by every goal in their treatment plan. it just takes time and, you know, we all learn. And definitely looking back and thinking that I was, you know, pretty naive and then I would take it personally if I found out that someone was lying to me about being sober and they were not. And I heard in a community they were doing, and I would take it personally. And that is there's nothing to do with me as everything to do with where they are. And I didn't know that at the time. So I believe that. I wish that I had someone to tell me that back then. but then again, I wouldn't be here today, so.

Heather Haslem: Well, thank you.


You spoke about the importance of peer support for mental health providers

I, it's interesting, like, as you're speaking about that sort of isolation for providers, it's something I've actually been hearing frequently, from providers that are friends and acquaintances, colleagues, etc. and it makes me think about the importance of peer support, especially, you know, you mentioned first responders and retiring early and There's a lot of peer support in the first responder world, because of the toll of the work that's done. And so it definitely, I don't know, piques my interest is, you know, we think about ways to support the field moving forward. What does that look like?

Agata Gawronski: And then what are we doing with the existing field to support each other. Right. And that's the thing. And I think that it goes back to this culture of like, I can get it done, I can tough it out and how am m I complaining? You know, and someone else has 60 people on their caseload and they have to see him and all once a week. And you know, and there's the bet if we don't talk about it, we don't know what the other person is going through. There's, there's, there's this really, unsettling shame that comes with realizing or admitting to burnout or admitting to maybe doubts that you have about the field or your profession or the efficacy of the treatment or the treatment outcomes. and then it's important that we do have, you know, each other and the peer. I don't believe that we promote enough of that. That is part of self care is to connect. You know, if we have AA groups and Al anon groups and Gambus Anonymous groups, why don't we have groups for mental health providers to flash it out and you know, maybe that's something we could talk about too. And maybe we could make that a mandatory continuous education unit for. Why are we mandating suicide prevention? Great. We're mandating sexual, we mandating cultural diversity. Why are we mandating for our providers to, I don't know, clock in 10 hours of yoga once a year and then send me a. I mean really, sometimes, what boils down to we have to be forced to look at ourselves. and I think that's And that's a big one. I think it's an ongoing discussion or I don't know if it's a discussion. It's an ongoing issue that remains, unresolved, or unaddressed is that we, don't have each other as I don't believe in our field.

Heather Haslem: It's interesting. I was, I just finished reading Dr. Vivek Murthy, the current Surgeon General, just for like, I don't know, 18 more days or whatever. He put out a prescription to America, on and I'll put it in the show notes, but on just published January 7th. And really his prescription to America is all about community, purpose, social connections. and he talks about this virtue of it coming from a place of love. So a really impactful publication that anyone listening who finds this discussion interesting will probably find that interesting as well. So we can link that in the show notes.

Agata Gawronski: it's great to hear that and I'm definitely going to read this. And I believe that we did reach in general as a crisis and that you know, of course that spills into our field. But we really reached the point of in Covid of the isolation becoming unbearable and realizing maybe we have to pivot from that and start over in a sense of you know, let's start, let's put the phones down and start really reconnecting. and I think that's actually great what you just said and maybe we can promote that more. And you know, we talk about mental m health, we talk about everybody, you know, about people being anxious and depressed and why instead of starting from the root and focusing on prevention. Right. instead of just waiting for the symptoms and then, and then treating symptoms. And that is very much true to our providers.

Heather Haslem: I mean it takes me back to the beginning of our conversation and this upstream approach. Right. What happens when we sit down and look holistically, at a problem or issue, put lots of different minds and ideas together and think about, okay, what can we try together, in building community from a place of promoting well being.

Agata Gawronski: And it's as simple as, and I believe, I do believe that it's changing, and I really am hoping to see that m evolving and becoming enormous. That the shame that's associated with substance use disorders and problem gambling and if we can normalize it and treat it like diabetes and everything else that is, you know, treatable, maybe that would be helpful. Maybe that would be actually that would play into the approach of the community we all will benefit from first starting with prevention, education and then treatment, but not stigmatizing it any farther. And that is on us as a community.

Heather Haslem: As you've seen, as you've been in this career for, I think you said 17 years. Yes. how have you seen stigma change over the course of that 17 years?

Agata Gawronski: I believe that the opioid crisis had definitely, changed the narrative and changed the landscape of how we look at addiction, at least in this country. I believe that that was a, well, one huge wake up call. the enormous devastation that caused, was forced us to speak up and normalize the, you know, the addiction and by not having Any trouble. It was so, you know, out in the open when you find you. When you. When you mentioned, sorry for digression, but when you mentioned that Surgeon General had publication that was like when opioid crisis happened. That was the first time ever that Surgeon General. Remember, I don't know what year was that? 10, 2010. You have to look it up if we can fact check it later. But that was the first time ever that something came out of, you know, the administration that was addressing, addiction. I think that was, that was That was a big contributor, I believe, at least from where I sit. And then again, like there was no other way but to ask for help when opioid crisis, exploded in the country. and that kind of opened the dialogue and realize that this is a problem just like any other health crisis that we have to really take on. so I think a lot of that, I think in the past few years, mental health, and I don't know how to say it, I don't want to say became a trend, but we hear so much more about mental health and people take it to the extreme as well. that's the human nature, however, just, you know, being able to actually have it. A conversation about mental health, which substance use, mental health, you know, they're twins. And, and. And I think that kind of spilled over as well to the addiction field. and it's. It's definitely helped. It's definitely been, It's from where I started and where we are today, you know, conversation around, medication assisted treatment changed dramatically. looking for new solutions for, you know, for addiction and you know, again being curious and trying to find medicine. That's. I mean we had Vivitrol forever, but truly like that was always the it felt like it was never priority because there was so much stigma around it. I, think it's evolved quite a bit. and I think also because there's such a demand and it kind of expanded for us, the field and made people curious, about the field and you know, minor. Is it minor in addiction still the most popular course with university? I mean that's. That says a lot. That says a lot. That, that tells you that the stigma is definitely fading. It's. I don't believe that's going to go away in the next five to 10 years, but it's, it's definitely morphed and and. And it's been going in a great direction.

Heather Haslem: That makes a lot of sense.


As you look back at your career, is there anything that you would have done differently

So as you look back at your career, is there anything that you would have done differently?

Agata Gawronski: You know, first instinct would be yes, I was very hot headed, a leader at the beginning. I was very angry at how things were not working and very forceful, and probably just because I was also much younger. However, when I think about it and I reflect back and I thought about that, just, preparing for this interview a little bit and I thought no, because again we wouldn't be sitting here today if I was acting out of, and following my instincts and acting out of true passion and love for the field and a true need that I have to help and to heal. And so no, I, would do all the same, you know, and still pissed off a bunch of people on the way to here. But, it all worked out in the end.

Heather Haslem: Sounds like you maybe, shook it up a bit. Something that needed to be shook up and then we built community around it. It sounds like.

Agata Gawronski: I would love to believe that, yes. I hope that people can see it that way. and it's, you know, there's no growth if there's no discomfort. And there was a lot of discomfort, and the need to do it my way and my way worked and I'm proud of it.


What are the core values that have guided your career? Compassion and integrity

Heather Haslem: What are the core values that have guided your career?

Agata Gawronski: I have always stayed true to myself. I never once betrayed myself to look good. it was never about my career, my position, or. It was always a genuine passion for the field. I don't play games and compassion. Compassion and knowing that and realizing very early on that not very many people really naturally have a compassion for other human beings and how much that means to those in need made me realize how as difficult and frustrating and really consuming this field is or can be. I couldn't do anything else.

Heather Haslem: Thank you.


What advice do you have for young professionals entering substance use and problem gambling field

So, as we wrap up, what advice do you have for young professionals entering the substance use and problem gambling field?

Agata Gawronski: Make sure that you know that's what you want to do. I would definitely advise to familiarize yourselves with the field before making a big commitment and not discouraging anyone. I am just truly, wholeheartedly encourage people to understand what they're getting themselves into. educate yourself, take care of yourself. and then just remembering that you can save everybody, but your work is very important and it can be very, very gratifying and very, very fulfilling.

Heather Haslem: I also am, reminded of the story that you shared and I'm thinking that it can also be surprising that we don't always know the impact that we have on another person, even when we feel like we might not be making a difference.

Agata Gawronski: And it's important again, seek supervision, seek mentorship, and talk to others. You're not isolated. there's 99% chance that your colleagues or peers are going through something similar. And just sharing that and having that community, that support and someone that can absolutely relate to you is extremely helpful and definitely keep, keep you going.

Heather Haslem: Well, thank you so much for your time today. It's been lovely to connect with you. Agana.

Agata Gawronski: Thank you so much. Heather.


This podcast features conversations from the Cassatt Podcast Network about behavioral health topics

Heather Haslem: Thank you for listening to CASAT Conversations, your resource for exploring behavioral health topics. We hope you found today's conversation timely and meaningful. Please share this podcast with your friends and colleagues. If you want to learn more, visit us at our blog at casatondemand.org.

Heather Haslem: CASAT Podcast Network This podcast has been brought to you by the CASAT Podcast Network, located within the Center for the Application of Substance Abuse Technologies, a part of the School of Public Health at the University of Nevada, Reno. For more podcast information and resources, visit casat.org.